Convocation of the Collegium

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Re: Convocation of the Collegium

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Mon May 29, 2017 10:23 pm

Gaius Florius Lupus wrote:
Gaius Curtius Philo wrote:Lupe amice, the magistri have the power to approve applications. I think you're facing technical problems. Dont assume things like that, you mght end up apreading falsehoods by mistake. See if you are listed as magister of the Collegium Philosophicum. If you are not it is because if that. If you are then it is a technical errror of the system.


I do not make hasty assumption. I am listed as magister, still I have no access to the control panel of the collegium. My inquiries about this subject in the main forum or to the Curule Aedile went unanswered. Our second magister Cispius Laevus was also unable to approve applications. Is there any collegium leader who is actually able to approve applications?
The system is technically not working, magistrates do not answer inquiries. And nobody realizes it, because nothing gets ever finished here and results only in endless debates like this last discussion in the Senate about Collegia and Societates.

Brutus or whoever is the current webmaster should take things in his hand, fix the technical issues without a Senate session for every detail. And then the bylaws should reflect the actual technical facts.


As Seneca has attested amice, the magistri of the Collegium Latinum are able to approve applications.

I just checked and you are listed as the leader of the CPhil. Did you check your spam box to be sure it isnt there? Did you check if the email you provided is the one you are currently using? Who has asked to be approved and hasnt been able to so far?

Regarding how the Senate is working, I think you're right to be irritated at the slow pace of it. This Senate Session has been an utter waste of time. No response. Very poorly organized. We are avoiding using the Senate too much, that is why most of the daily operations of the Republic are handled by Edicta. But the Collegium/Societas issue has been such a hot topic that it required a Senate meeting (the first in this entire year if Im not mistaken...) so to say that we are using it for every little detail is rather unfair, but I can see you are saying it more out of frustration than anything else.

I am an advocate for deregularization, with as much autonomy for the Collegia as possible. So believe me Im at your side in this. But you must understand that this is a topic that Had to be debated in the Senate...

Brutus is unfortunetly away for a while, it is being hard to contact him. Two of the Aediles are gone (Cassia and Galba), one is very inexperienced (Augustus) which just leaves Horatius, who isn't very active. Unfortunetly the people chose them to be responsible for this aspect of the Republic and they are proving to not be up to the task...
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Re: Convocation of the Collegium

Postby Lucia Horatia Adamas » Mon May 29, 2017 11:39 pm

L. Horatia Adamas C. Florio Lupo C. Curtio Philoni P. Sextio Laevo L. Livio Senecae omnibusque S.P.D.

I am not at my best due to an unfortunate medication change by a doctor who has never seen me, but prescribed an alternate medication which leaves me feeling as if I got hit by a truck--again, given that that happened to this then-pedestrian some years ago. I felt better after that than I do now.

Lupe, I at least do receive notices of requests for memberships for the Collegium Latinum. Probably Seneca does as well as he is my co-magister. In fact, I have approved at least a couple of new members by that system. However, there is no way that I can ask a prospective member why he or she is interested in this group (there are those who like to collect memberships, offices, etc., but have no interest beyond that), or ask whether or not he / she has studied Latin at all, or for how long, whether he / she speaks Latin, etc., etc., all of which are useful bits of information. If I click on the link provided, the person is automatically admitted without the possibility of any further inquiry, whereas on Yahoo lists one may ask these relevant questions without difficulty, although there is no guarantee that the petitioner will respond. Those who don't do not get admitted, at least not by yours truly. I don't think that you are an officer of the Collegium Latinum, so perhaps that is why you do not receive such notices. If you are an officer of the Collegium Philosophicum, you should indeed receive such notices for that group, but probably not for this one (Latinum).

Laeve, I would agree with you that the wording and the English translation for the regula of the Collegium Philosophicum should be settled before voting. Those who can't read Latin with reasonable fluency (the overwhelming majority of most populations) probably don't even know what is in that regula.

In the version of the CL regula posted by Laevus, please note that 'utri magistro,' dative, is required with the gerundive, not 'utro magistro,' the ablative. 'Uter' is one of nine adjectives I call 'the weird sisters,' * whose declension is irregular. Mostly their parts are in the first and second declensions, but the dative singular is in the third declension (utri) and the genitive singular follows the pattern of the demonstratives, ending in -íus, with the i long and therefore stressed: utríus. 'Petitio,' being feminine, like all third declension abstract nouns in -(t)io, requires a feminine complement, 'aperta,' but 'petitio' does not seem to be the best term for this. 'Rogatio' is the term Cicero used; 'petitio' is rare in this sense, and seems to be late as well. Better still would be a rewording, e.g., 'Licet omnibus civibus Romanis societatem Collegi rogare / licet omnibus civibus Romanis se cum Collegio jungere.' [Here I would add 'magistro approbante']. There are some other errors there which need improvement.


*mnemonic: UNUS NAUTA, for unus, nullus, ullus, solus, neuter, alius, uter, totus, alter. The genitive of alius is very rare, often substituted by that of 'alter.'

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Re: Convocation of the Collegium

Postby Lucius Livius Seneca » Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:20 pm

L. Livius mag. omnibus sociis s.p.d.

With the majority of the discussion having already taken place in the Collegium Philosophicum, hopefully it is now time to approve our own revised bylaws. Below is an emended version of the text we produced among the philosophi that reflects the particularities (highlighted in red) of our own Collegium already discussed above:

REGVLA COLLEGI LATINI

The major differences can be summarized as follows:
  • The purposes of the Collegium Latinum (I);
  • The Magistri are elected by pluralities rather than strict majorities (VIII);
  • The Magistri can be removed from office by an extraordinary majority (IX);
  • Any vote of the College requires at least three votes to be cast in order to be valid (i.e., a quorum of three is set) (XIII);
  • An absolute extraordinary majority is required to dissolve the College (XVII);
  • An extraordinary majority is required to emend the bylaws (XVIII).
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Re: Convocation of the Collegium

Postby Publius Sextius Laevus » Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:13 pm

P. Sextius Laevus L. Livio Senecæ magister Horatiae Adamanti magistrae omnibusque S.P.D.

Ut minimum quantum suffragatorium clariorem statuere, ut participationem citare, atquin opus collegi stagnantem non sufferre, eam commutationem suadeo:

XIII. Aliquid propositum collegi et erogatio pecuniae, nisi alibi provideatur, parte maiore suffragiorum indiget ut valeat.

#*. In omni parte suffragiis re Collegii, tria suffragia, quae 'uti rogas' dicenda, saltem ferri debent ut valeat.

* - sequens numerus XIV etc.

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Re: Convocation of the Collegium

Postby Lucia Horatia Adamas » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:03 pm



L. Horatia Adamas P. Sextio Lævo L. Livio Senecæ C. Curtio Philoni C. Florio Lupo omnibusque S.P.D.

Last night I was unable to log in to view a post on this topic, but all seems well now--except for the side effects of a certain medication on me, albeit not the same one as earlier. I have copied the text below in order to facilitate my responses; there are some grammatical errors aliaque talia.


Rationes
Hac regula Collegium Latinum ut collegium culturale Rei Publicae Romanae conditum est ad rationes sequentes:

The phrase 'ad rationes sequentes' seems odd; perhaps something more like 'huic proposito' [for this purpose] or 'huic rationi.'


Usum Latinitatis ubique fovendum,

Melius: Usum linguæ Latinæ. 'Latinitas' has a different shade of meaning. We might also add 'colendus / colendum' to 'fovendus / fovendum.'



litteras propagandas, nova opera creanda, et educationem exquisitionemque eiusdem augendas;
Interpretationes Latinas supplendas subveniendasque pro Re Publica;
Statum publicum Latinitatis

Et iterum: linguæ Latinæ

advocandum et usum monendum

fortasse melius: hortandum. Shouldn't much of this be nominative, and possibly with the subjunctive or the future imperative?

in Re Publica.
Socii
Omnibus civibus Romanis liceat socii Collegi Latini fieri.
Socius utri magistro approbandus est.
Omnes socii, qui cives optimo iure sunt, suffragium habento.

Regimen

Habento duo magistri collegialiter magisterium collegi et invicem vetanto. Sunto primi inter pares; pro collegio loquuntor, deliberationes collegio praeponunto; decernunto suffragia irrita esse, nam magistri moderatores fori Collegi Latini sunt.
Socii suffragatores potestatem legiferam communiter habent.
Suffragiis in aequo stantibus, e moribus maiorum rem vel candidatum cecidisse decernitor.
Magistri pluritati eligendi sunt unum annum qui Idibus Octobris

Octobribus, third declension, and in agreement with "Idibus."

incipit, sed:
Si alterum munus vacat, alius magister collegium convocato et comitia habeto.
Si ambo munera simul vacant, unus quisque suffragator collegium convocare et comitia habere potest.
Si collegium et magistris et suffragatoribus careat, Aedilibus Curulibus traditor ut status reficiatur.
Pars dodrans suffragiorum munus magistro abrogare potest.

Convocationes
Liceto utri magistro collegium convocare, quae convocatio illi una quidem septimana antea annuntianda est.
Liceto unicuique socio collegium convocare nisi utri magistro displiceat.
Unicuique socio statum optimi iuris habenti rem coram convocatione ferre licito.
Aliquid propositum collegi et erogatio pecuniae, nisi alibi provideatur, parte maiore suffragiorum ac tribus suffragiis saltem fertis indiget ut valeat.

Moderatio
Rixae inter socios privatim placandae sunt, vel parti maiori, magistris intercedentibus, si necesse sit.
Ob nefas contra rationes regulamve collegi, vel morem maiorum pars dodrans suffragiorum socium expellere potest.
Socius expulsus adversus talem expulsionem ad Aedilem vel Curulem vel Plebeium, si plebeius sit, appellare potest.

Dissolutio
Pars dodrans omnium suffragatorum collegium dissolvi potest; si collegium sic dissolvatur, denarii sui Aerario Populi Romani dantor.

Emendationes
Pars dodrans suffragiorum hanc regulam emendare potest.

The major differences can be summarized as follows:
The purposes of the Collegium Latinum (I);
The Magistri are elected by pluralities rather than strict majorities (VIII);
The Magistri can be removed from office by an extraordinary majority (IX);
Any vote of the College requires at least three votes to be cast in order to be valid (i.e., a quorum of three is set) (XIII);
An absolute extraordinary majority is required to dissolve the College (XVII);
An extraordinary majority is required to emend the bylaws (XVIII).
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Re: Convocation of the Collegium

Postby Publius Sextius Laevus » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:04 pm

P. Sextius Laevus L. Livio Senecæ magister Horatiae Adamanti magistrae omnibusque S.P.D.

With edits incorporated:

REGVLA COLLEGI LATINI

Rationes
I. Hac regula Collegium Latinum ut collegium culturale Rei Publicae Romanae conditum est his propositis:
A. Usum linguae Latinae ubique fovendum colendumque, litteras propagandas, nova opera creanda, et educationem exquisitionemque eiusdem augendas;
B. Interpretationes Latinas supplendas subveniendasque pro Re Publica;
C. Statum publicum linguae Latinae advocandum et usum hortandum monendumque in Re Publica.

Socii
II. Omnibus civibus Romanis liceat socii Collegi Latini fieri.
III. Socius utri magistro approbandus est.
IV. Omnes socii, qui cives optimo iure sunt, suffragium habento.

Regimen
V. Habento duo magistri collegialiter magisterium collegi et invicem vetanto. Sunto primi inter pares; pro collegio loquuntor, deliberationes collegio praeponunto; decernunto suffragia irrita esse, nam magistri moderatores fori Collegi Latini sunt.
VI. Socii suffragatores potestatem legiferam communiter habent.
VII. Suffragiis in aequo stantibus, e moribus maiorum rem vel candidatum cecidisse decernitor.
VIII. Magistri pluritati eligendi sunt unum annum qui Idibus Octobribus incipit, sed:
A. Si alterum munus vacat, alius magister collegium convocato et comitia habeto.
B. Si ambo munera simul vacant, unus quisque suffragator collegium convocare et comitia habere potest.
C. Si collegium et magistris et suffragatoribus careat, Aedilibus Curulibus traditor ut status reficiatur.
IX. Pars dodrans suffragiorum munus magistro abrogare potest.

Convocationes
X. Liceto utri magistro collegium convocare, quae convocatio illi una quidem septimana antea annuntianda est.
XI. Liceto unicuique socio collegium convocare nisi utri magistro displiceat.
XII. Unicuique socio statum optimi iuris habenti rem coram convocatione ferre licito.
XIII. Aliquid propositum collegi et erogatio pecuniae, nisi alibi provideatur, parte maiore suffragiorum indiget ut valeat.
XIV. In omni parte suffragiis re Collegii, tria suffragia, quae 'uti rogas' dicenda, saltem ferri debent ut valeat.

Moderatio
XV. Rixae inter socios privatim placandae sunt, vel parti maiori, magistris intercedentibus, si necesse sit.
XVI. Ob nefas contra rationes regulamve collegi, vel morem maiorum pars dodrans suffragiorum socium expellere potest.
XVII. Socius expulsus adversus talem expulsionem ad Aedilem vel Curulem vel Plebeium, si plebeius sit, appellare potest.

Dissolutio
XVIII. Pars dodrans omnium suffragatorum collegium dissolvi potest; si collegium sic dissolvatur, denarii sui Aerario Populi Romani dantor.

Emendationes
XIX. Pars dodrans suffragiorum hanc regulam emendare potest.

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Re: Convocation of the Collegium

Postby Lucius Livius Seneca » Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:32 pm

L. Livius mag. Horatiae Adamanti mag. P. Sextio et aliis sociis sal.

Horatia Adamas, your suggestions are all good ones. If we change the construction of §I from "ad ..." to the dative, then §§A-C will need to be changed accordingly. Do you wish to put your hand to this?

P. Sextius Laevus wrote:In omni parte suffragiis re Collegii, tria suffragia, quae 'uti rogas' dicenda, saltem ferri debent ut valeat.

P. Sexti, If you wish to make the quorum requirement its own clause, that is fine, but I think what you have here is too strict. A quorum requires that a minimum number of members vote in order for a resolution to stand, whereas your proposed clause requires a minimum of three "aye" votes, which is a much stronger requirement. Would something like this not be sufficient?:

L. Livius Seneca wrote:In omni re Collegi suffraganda, tria suffragia saltem ferri debent ut valeat.
[In every matter of the College to be voted upon, at least three votes must be cast for it to stand.]

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Re: Convocation of the Collegium

Postby Publius Sextius Laevus » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:44 am

P. Sextius Laevus L. Livio Senecæ magister Horatiae Adamanti magistrae omnibusque S.P.D.

The clause is a little odd, I admit, but considering the participation level at times I feel that it approaches a compromise between just two people against one being able to carry a proposal and not being able to raise a quorum to accomplish anything. Should we set the quorum at five or higher?

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Re: Convocation of the Collegium

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:49 am

Be careful not to run the risk of paralysis because of too strict a quota.
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Re: Convocation of the Collegium

Postby Publius Sextius Laevus » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:58 am

Salve Philo!

The clause would allow three to carry a proposal without needing two more to disagree but make up the quorum.

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