What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:16 pm

Publius Iulius Albinus wrote: There were a lot of things wrong with the ancient Roman polity, namely an array of illiberal, authoritarian, and chauvinistic tendencies and institutions. Recreating that in carbon-copy is not desirable either, as it flies in the face of the actualisation of individual freedom and progress.


I have a question for clarification:
What is in your eyes wrong with the modern Italian Republic? And if there is nothing wrong with it, why is there a need for our Roman Republic?
The Italian government has done away with all the illiberal, authoritarian, and chauvinistic tendencies of ancient Rome. But they preserve the Roman culture, its values and its archaeological sites.
Well, most of us live outside of Italy, but even the other Western countries are shaped after this model and after the Roman traditions.
So why does the world need our organization? What is it that is not already taken care of by others?

I am not criticizing anybody's opinion. I am just trying to understand the motivation of other cives of our community, because this may hold the key to our further expansion.

Valete!
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Publius Iulius Albinus » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:29 am

Gaius Florius Lupus wrote:I am not criticizing anybody's opinion. I am just trying to understand the motivation of other cives of our community, because this may hold the key to our further expansion.

Since joining this organisation, I've pretty much always seen it primarily as a religio romana association or group. Yes, it has a system of management that emulates the Roman Republic for stylistic and historical reasons. But I've always viewed RR as a religious organisation first, and a network for others who seek to revive aspects of historical Roman culture and values.
That is what I think this group (and others like it) bring to the table, that modern secular nations who claim Roman roots do not. Like I said, I think it's good to describe us as a "spiritual nation" as opposed to a political one.
These being the words of Publius Iulius Albinus Alexander.
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Lucius Metilius Niger » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:16 pm

Publius Iulius Albinus wrote:
Gaius Florius Lupus wrote:I am not criticizing anybody's opinion. I am just trying to understand the motivation of other cives of our community, because this may hold the key to our further expansion.

Since joining this organisation, I've pretty much always seen it primarily as a religio romana association or group. Yes, it has a system of management that emulates the Roman Republic for stylistic and historical reasons. But I've always viewed RR as a religious organisation first, and a network for others who seek to revive aspects of historical Roman culture and values.
That is what I think this group (and others like it) bring to the table, that modern secular nations who claim Roman roots do not. Like I said, I think it's good to describe us as a "spiritual nation" as opposed to a political one.


Agree with Albinus
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:07 pm

I am pleased to see that we agree on the importance of the religio in our Republic. If the religio romana was not the main purpose of our organization, then it would have none. Anything else is already taken care of by other modern organizations.
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Marcus Minucius Audens » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:34 pm

Gentlemen;

For my part I agree totally with Censor Brutus in his view of the RR nation. In my view, it would be unfortunate if RR was turned into a "Relious Republic' by short-viewed individuals. The Roman Empire was too great for that kind of religous reduction of the facts. I do not mind others beliefs as long as they do not interfere with my own. I do not believe in gremlins under every bridge or spirits living in a river. When I see the things that others see that have NO physical or scientific answers then I will consider changing my view. Until such time as that occurs, let us have a total set of aspects within RR and let the religous ideas live along with the practical ideas. It is said the religion lives within the heart and in my view that is where it should stay. In that way each man and woman can live the religous life that they desire, unbothered and unfettered by those who would force their ideas on others!

When you get too deep into the religous theory you will find some rather unpleasant ideas which plagued the Republic and the Empire well into the Byzantine period. Be cautious in what you desire and expect because all is not sweetness and light in the Roman Empire, just as in all other cultural organizantions that are based on humanities and its ills!

In closing, I do not mean to criticize any belief system, any more than any other member here, but rather to bring a different view to the argument.

Respectfully;
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:45 pm

Salve honorabilis Marce Audens!

The Religio Romana cannot be measured by the same standards as Christianity or Islam. The Religio does not force a particular belief on anybody. It does not explain the world or teach a certain ethical or philosophical system like these so called "world religions". The Religio is no world religion, it is a national religion. It is about Roman traditions, Roman culture and the Roman way of life. It is possible to honor the Religio and additionally pray to any other foreign god, be it Jesus, Mohammed, Quetzalcoatl or whatever. One can believe that the world was created in 6 days, in a Big Bang or that it is eternal without a beginning. It is not a natural science, not a philosophy and not a form of psycho-therapy.

But in our Republic the Religio Romana has to be respected. It is the heart of our culture. And this respect extends to the religious offices like the Collegium Pontificum and the augures. Disrespect against their office and authority, even if one follows the belief in other gods or prophets, is unacceptable. For example if the augures advice against a Senate session being held at a certain day, then their advice is binding even for Senators who consider themselves Christians, Buddhists or whatever.

I hope we can agree on that.

Vale!
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Marcus Aurelius Seianus » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:06 pm

Gaius Florius Lupus wrote:
The Religio Romana cannot be measured by the same standards as Christianity or Islam. The Religio does not force a particular belief on anybody. It does not explain the world or teach a certain ethical or philosophical system like these so called "world religions".


By your own admission you are forcing your views on others by stating we all must honor and respect the religio or else. How is your argument even relevant when you contradict yourself?
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Lucius Curtius Philo » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:25 pm

Salvete,

Personal opinions aside, the Declaration is clear on how religion is to be approached in the Roman Republic.

ix) The primacy of national spiritual leadership is to be held by a Collegium Pontificum. This leading role in affairs pertaining to the Cultus Deorum Romanorum is to be respected and protected;

xi) The official religion of the Res Publica is to be publicly that of the ancient Roman religion (Cultus Deorum Romanorum)

xii) The freedom to follow, discuss and practice any personal faith as a private member (citizen) without discrimination or harassment. Mutual respect and tolerance towards all faiths and spiritual practices are to be held in the highest regard; no one is to be regarded as less or more Roman based solely on their private personal religious practices;


valete.
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:20 am

Consul Philo said it all. We just need to follow the Declaration. The CDR has primacy and official recognition as the religion of our Organization, but this organization has mechanisms that make it so no religion is disrespected an no one is forced to be of any given religion to hold most public offices. We are a diverse community and that is our main strength. The CDR is just one of the pillars of our society, and, as the other pillars, it is not for everyone and no one should be forced on it.
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Gaius Cominius Laenas » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:55 am

I became a citizen late, but was involved with this organization months before it was publicly founded. I participated in the early discussions defining what its purpose was.

What the Roman Republic is, and why it exists is as clear as the sun on a cloudless day. We explained this exactly in the Declaration. It took a lot of work getting it right. But in the end, this description isn't controversial or nebulous. It is just fact.

Read Censor Brutus' original post in this thread.

...the topic of a spiritual-nation. Such a concept is not grounded upon geographical foci. Such nations already commonly exist outside or alongside the traditional nation-state. Within North America, First Nations or Native communities often have such status which can be tied to several geographic locations loosely. Instead, cultural, spiritual and historical ties formulate such nations. I think a Roman nation based upon such a concept is a possibility if not already present.

Within this spiritual nation, two components are often present. (I) Local organization - often present in many locations and operating independently. (II) A means of coordinating such various communities with representation of the nation to the rest of the world.
There are many ideas about what should come first. Grass roots local communities of cultores versus more internationally focused communities of cultores. Some will say grass roots groups must come first. Some will say larger international groups should be the primary focus. I say this whole argument is irrelevant.

Both local grass root communities and an international collaborative network are essential to the future. Both are synergistic towards the development of both local communities and a greater national-community transcending any single location. Both local and international communities should develop side by side. One begets the other. Local communities are hindered without collaboration and representation, particularly in regards to education and fundraising and such macro-level representation is impossible without thriving local communities.

In my opinion, a Cultus Deorum nation already exists today. It is not a nation-state but a very real spiritual nation of peoples. It exists on the ground in many communities and is represented by many various groups. The RomanRepublic.org is poised to facilitate voluntary collaboration and coordination between these many thriving communities. In this way, the relationship with the Gods and Goddesses is being formulated in a new but familiar way with a new but very real type of nation evolving.



Now look to the Declaration to understand how the "RomanRepublic.org is poised to facilitate voluntary collaboration and coordination between these many thriving communities" of cultores within this spiritual nation.

...the Res Publica Romana is dedicated towards the following objectives:

i) To represent the interests of those who partake and live a restored Roman culture and/or religion and all of its associated practices;

ii) To preserve and promote the unity of a worldwide community who self-identify as Romans;

iii) To coordinate and facilitate the scholarly recreation of ancient Roman culture and all associated practices, such as, but not limited to, religion, art, literature, philosophy, architecture, language, and history, as well as general education on these topics;

iv) To fund and support original academic research to further an accurate cultural understanding of ancient Rome;

v) To take measures to promote literacy and the regular use of the Roman language of Latin;

vi) To serve as a facilitator of a restored Roman Religion (Cultus Deorum Romanorum) in regards to public ritual and to assist and aid a restored, independent and active Collegium Pontificum;

vii) Assisting the Collegium Pontificum in promoting the public Cultus Deorum Romanorum within the Res Publica Romana national community. The Collegium Pontificum is to have a primary role in all affairs regarding the practice of the public Cultus Deorum and maintenance of the Pax Deorum. The Collegium Pontificum will also have a role within education on spiritual traditions relevant to the practice of the Cultus Deorum;

viii) To work with the Collegium Pontificum in promoting and teaching the ancient Roman public and personal virtues in all activities facilitated by the Res Publica;

ix) To provide both regional and worldwide community administration of a nation of Romans structured as closely as possible upon the principles of the ancient Roman Republic. National governance and logistical direction is to be provided by a Senate and magistrates. The assemblies of the Roman People are to be the highest governing bodies of the Res Publica Romana;

x) To promote high-quality reenactment events related to ancient Rome as a means of scholarship, outreach, and cultural expression and to provide a forum for reenactors to collaborate collectively;

xi) To act as a medium by which goods and services relating to the restoration and education of Roman culture may be sold and traded;

xii) To retain the ability to levy membership fees from registered members (citizens);

xiii) To work towards eventual establishment of a physical community, within existing international borders, where a member (citizen) has the choice of living, working, raising a family and socializing amongst other Romans if they choose;



and...


...the Res Publica Romana guarantees the following:

i) In forming a nation of Romans the Res Publica Romana rejects violence, coercion or any other activity deemed illegal in pursuit of its aims;

ii) To reject all forms of discrimination, including, but not limited to that motivated by ethnicity, gender, country of residence, sexual orientation or faith practiced;

iii) To provide all Romans who are citizens of the Res Publica Romana a forum to communicate as a united community of Romans;

iv) The recognition of two millennia of advances regarding human and animal rights. In this recognition, we pledge to respect, support and promote human and animal rights at all times within our nation;

v) Regular elections by which those who hold membership (citizenship) may voice opinions freely;

vi) No citizen may be penalized by any member (citizen) operating in an official capacity on behalf of the Res Publica without having the opportunity to undergo a fair and transparent review and appeals process;

vii) To provide regular financial transparency by providing annual detailed reports to all registered citizens and to insist upon competitive bidding procedures for all contracts signed by national and regional administrations;

viii) To insist that all officials, including recognized pontifices/augurs and other such figures demonstrate procedural transparency at all times and to provide accurate and detailed records to all registered citizens upon request and to the general populace on an annual basis;

ix) The primacy of national spiritual leadership is to be held by a Collegium Pontificum. This leading role in affairs pertaining to the Cultus Deorum Romanorum is to be respected and protected;

x) The rejection of political extremism promoting intolerance. This includes but is not limited to any fascist political ideology;

xi) The official religion of the Res Publica is to be publicly that of the ancient Roman religion (Cultus Deorum Romanorum)

xii) The freedom to follow, discuss and practice any personal faith as a private member (citizen) without discrimination or harassment. Mutual respect and tolerance towards all faiths and spiritual practices are to be held in the highest regard; no one is to be regarded as less or more Roman based solely on their private personal religious practices;




So it is clear why the Roman Republic exists. It is a body that transcends political barriers and represents, supports and coordinates the modern cultural-spiritual nation of Romans in the world. It supports local groups. It supports cultores. It supports Latinists. It supports anyone who has a love for Romanitas and a desire to live this culture and restore the best of the past for today. In this way, a new type of Republic is born for a very different type of Roman nation, a cultural-spiritual nation. The legacy of our ancestors evolved into this type of nation, and the Republic is providing the people of this nation a collective voice and means of collaborating and coordinating towards a better tomorrow! The Republic of today is different but retains the vestiges of the legacy bequeathed to us. This legacy we must cherish and nourish.
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