What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

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What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Publius Iunius Brutus » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:51 am

Brutus sal.

Recently some people have been asking questions about the viability of a Res Publica Romana "nation". Some have said that local gross root communities should be the main goal. Others say international organizations should be the primary goal. I argue that neither idea alone is correct. Here I outline my ideas on this important question:

Can a modern nation based upon ancient Roman culture and spiritual traditions be formed?

I think important distinctions need to be made between a nation-state and a spiritual-nation. Both concepts are modern constructs. The cultus deorum of the 21st century can't ignore these constructs if a living religion is to be restored. We can't rewind history but work within modern definitions and acknowledge the progress made over the last 1700 years.

With this in mind, I think a modern Cultus Deorum nation-state cannot be restored in the immediate future. A state like the Vatican for instance. Maybe in a far future when there is a thriving community focus this is a possibility. But this is far far away if ever a possibility.

More interestingly is the topic of a spiritual-nation. Such a concept is not grounded upon geographical foci. Such nations already commonly exist outside or alongside the traditional nation-state. Within North America, First Nations or Native communities often have such status which can be tied to several geographic locations loosely. Instead, cultural, spiritual and historical ties formulate such nations. I think a Roman nation based upon such a concept is a possibility if not already present.

Within this spiritual nation, two components are often present. (I) Local organization - often present in many locations and operating independently. (II) A means of coordinating such various communities with representation of the nation to the rest of the world.
There are many ideas about what should come first. Grass roots local communities of cultores versus more internationally focused communities of cultores. Some will say grass roots groups must come first. Some will say larger international groups should be the primary focus. I say this whole argument is irrelevant.

Both local grass root communities and an international collaborative network are essential to the future. Both are synergistic towards the development of both local communities and a greater national-community transcending any single location. Both local and international communities should develop side by side. One begets the other. Local communities are hindered without collaboration and representation, particularly in regards to education and fundraising and such macro-level representation is impossible without thriving local communities.

In my opinion, a Cultus Deorum nation already exists today. It is not a nation-state but a very real spiritual nation of peoples. It exists on the ground in many communities and is represented by many various groups. The RomanRepublic.org is poised to facilitate voluntary collaboration and coordination between these many thriving communities. In this way, the relationship with the Gods and Goddesses is being formulated in a new but familiar way with a new but very real type of nation evolving.
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Publius Iunius Brutus » Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:42 am

Brutus sal.

Another citizen raised this good question:

One hallmark of a state is a defined territory... But what would the RR do?


I fundamentally disagree with territory = nation.

I think there are many cases of this notion not holding up to scrutiny. A nation CAN equal territory. But often it does not, or if it does, it exists within a nation-state or some other construct. The territory wise the Roman nation exists within many regions, and in many homes, at the lararium, the shrine, the altar, and places in between. Regarding the RR's role in assisting in the development of a Roman cultural/spiritual-nation I can outline some possible steps towards this goal.

I. Form a legally recognized organization acknowledged by nation-states that has the goal of assisting local people, communities and groups already established and living as Romans to some degree. That may be a combination of cultural and spiritual practices. (This process is already in progress)

II. The organization raises resources both in material and knowledge and simultaneously through these efforts gathers like-minded people across a spectrum of ideas that identify with general cultural and spiritual goals. These goals for the RR are defined in the Declaration: http://www.romanrepublic.org/wip/declaration.html. (This process is already in progress)

III. Using the national resources the RR assists already existing local groups. This can be with funds, with educational resources, technology, promotion, and other benefits conveyed through international collaboration. This process helps grow the local communities and the worldwide national Roman community.

IV. The processes above inspires new local groups to form and assists new cultores into the CDR. In particular, it actively supports geographically isolated cultores in this respect, using the internet as a bridge towards other existing grassroots communities and towards founding new local communities. It links these new groups into the wider existing collaborative national community.

V. With the other steps in place larger projects at the local level are more easily facilitated through networking opportunities provided through the national infrastructure. Temples, shrines, education programs, books and other things can be co-produced by regional groups and the national community working together. Quality improves, education improves, a stronger national identity develops.

KEYPOINT: None of this is centrally directed by the RR! This is not NR! Local private groups which are part of a spiritual-nation should take the initiative. International infrastructure should exist to aid regions when requested. In other words, the RR is not here to tell people in France, Italy, or California how to do things. Instead, it acts as a consensus platform and a collaborative link between many groups that collectively form a nation made up of the regions and groups which subscribe to the said nation. The nation is not one of control; there is no territory to govern or regulate. Instead, it is about unifying people with various ideas but shared ideals towards a common ideal that strengthens our culture, religion, and identity as something distinct, existent, and recognizable as such by the rest of the world.
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Lucius Metilius Niger » Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:02 pm

Thank you very much for this point

If a roman micro-nation is totally impossible and not souhaitable (in my point of view), a web-community, or web-communities (plural), yes.

In real-life, CDR people make the cultus deorum localy and properly, but they need a global-Network for renforce the international community, solidarity etc.

That's I think the role of a website and board like RR or others boards or Fb CDR groups.
it's my point of view, but I insist, these websites are NOT MORALY ALLOWED to replace entiere Sacred Institutions on the Web and by the Web. It was the NR "trap", when it create virtual Roman Institutions.
The Web is only a TOOL, not a sacred virtual place for our religious institutions. Replace Sacred Roman Institutions by the web is a HYBRIS trap.

Our ancient religious institutions are already alive in our hearts, in our minds, in real life, in our rituals and local CDR acts of Pietas, and local and legal associations (based on real laws).

I'm sorry, but I think, and that is very important for the Future of our community, NR, RPR or RR are only Romanistic Networks, web communities, not Sacred Organizations, so we must be carefull to not remake the NR errors by the past.

Respectfuly
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Lucius Metilius Niger » Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:22 pm

From my perspective, I believe that we do not "play the senators or pontiffs" by Internet, (it's completely crazy)
but the Cultus Deorum is primarily something real. The virtual to me only serves to maintain and strengthen solidarity, trade between the international community to. Organizations such as NR or RPR or RR should not replace the old sacred institutions, but merely serve their role as Internet network (as are other fora, Fb groups etc). I formally oppose any attempt to virtual organization wishing to establish itself as a church or institution wanting to replace the sacred institutions of the former Republic of Rome. This is in my opinion, a theft, a hybris, and the reason for the failure of these virtual organizations, "playing the senator," and from my point of view, fueling rôlisme and egotistical race tracks that if they make sense in a forum, have nO sense in reality. And the reality is indeed the most important. Cultus Deorum is not a role-game, it is a set of spiritual values ​​that make it a resurgent religion, not a revivalist sect.
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:40 am

Salvete amici!

Brutus mentioned and important point. A nation does not necessarily require a territory. The so called territorial state is a rather modern concept (established after the Westphalian peace treaty in 1648). Before this concept there was the "state of personal loyalties" also known as personal union state or how the historian Theodor Mayer called it "Personenverbandsstaat".
We may very well see the end of the age of territorial states today with non state players becoming more and more important e.g. multinational corporations or religious groups like the "islamic State". Especially the latter one, although a negative example, fulfills all requirements of a nation (common language, religion, culture, laws and central administration) without fixed and recognized borders.
I do not want to say that we should become a Roman version of the IS, I just wanted to show that there is a new phenomenon appearing in the world with nations that have no territorial borders.

Myself I have abstained from aspiring any public office in our republic, because like Metilius Niger I see these offices too detached from the real world. Our magistrates simply do not have imperium, which would be power over life and death of our citizens to enforce their decrees. I see very well that our institution requires an administrative apparatus for all the project, but names like "consul", "praetor" or "senator" are a little bit exaggerated.

It remains to emphasize that I firmly believe that our republic is on the right track with its inclusive approach. But as Metilius Niger already cautioned, we have to be careful not to drift off too much into the virtual realm of the Internet.

Rome is a very real city. It has its very real administration and its real population. The Repubblica Italiana is a modern republic that combines Roman traditions and modern principles like human rights and democracy. The Vatican is a real institution with 2000 years history in Rome and currently holding the real, not just virtual, title of the Roman pontifex maximus..
Therefore we have to ask ourselves: Where do we fit into the real world? What is our task and legitimacy, since there is already the religious authority of the Vatican, the state of the Republic of Italy and the municipal administration of Rome that uses the insignia SPQR up to the present day? Why are we as an organization necessary? What is our nature and what sets us apart from the aforementioned institutions?

I think the only possible answer can be found in our religion. The Republic of Italy and the municipal administration of Rome are secular institutions; the Vatican represents Christianity. So our task would be to represent the Religio Romana as a counterbalance to the christian institutions. This will only be possible in cooperation with the Italian government.
In order to move our organization from the Internet into the real world, we need real life projects.

Our best bet at the moment is our Tribune and procuratrix of Italy Cassia Longina. She lives in Rome and has very concrete projects for the future, It could start with a Roman themed restaurant as meeting point, a travel agency for cives of our Republic (The Collegium Peregrinatorum was a first move in this direction.) and other small steps.

My personal vision is to cooperate with the Italian authorities and the Capitoline Museum in a project to restore one of the ancient temples in the same way as it was 2000 years ago. The Temple of Venus and Roma in the Forum Romanum seems to be a good candidate. Due to its dedication to the goddess Roma, a personification of the City, it could also fulfill a secular purpose and be less offensive to non- practitioners of the Roman Religion. This temple could serve as a museum and sacred site at the same time with a permanent priesthood and regular ceremonies, which could be attractive for tourists in general. So it would be a win-win-situation for us and the Italian ministry of tourism. For us it could be the seat of our religious institutions.
In order to have this vision to become a reality, we have to grow, to organize ourselves and to cooperate or even unite with other Roman organizations (especially the Comunitas Populi Romani whose actual seat is in Italy).
This temple in Rome would become the center of the global spiritual Roman nation with local chapters worldwide, something very real and tangible, but without aspirations for micro-national sovereignty or other ideas, which are unrealistic.

These are my thoughts about this topic.

Valete!
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Lucius Metilius Niger » Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:01 pm

We are agree in many points Gaius Florius Lupus.
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Lucius Metilius Niger » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:29 pm

Une "Nation" Romanisante/romaine n'a pas, na plus besoin d'un territoire sous sa juridiction, car il n'est plus un Etat politique, mais une Nation Spirituelle.
De ce fait, la "République Romaine" est un ensemble non-homogène de cultures, de peuples, de communautés et d'individus libres réunis autour de la Romanité, non pas sous la forme d'un Etat politique et juridique, une autorité temporelle, mais d'une fraternité libre.
Bien évidemment, il est nécessaire d'avoir des hierarchies, des rôles pour chacun, en l'occurrence pour gérer la communauté, le forum, le site web, et tout un tas de choses. Je comprends donc pourquoi il y a des titres internes au forum de discussion, et pourquoi il y a des titres alloués pour les Collèges pontificaux. C'est tout à fait normal. Je comprends pourquoi il y a des votes, sur la base de l'ancienne République. la Nation romaine n'est pas une tyrannie.

Je pense que votre objectif le plus important est de fédérer - renforcer les "Provinces" et surtout de vous allier avec la communauté existante en Europe (CPR et Pharia), qui peut vous apporter beaucoup, surtout en terme de Cultus Deorum, de spiritualité et de religion.

Je comprends votre difficulté car si nous sommes tous connectés par Internet, nous sommes très éloignés les uns des autres, et c'est donc difficile pour officier le Cultus Deorum Romanorum ensemble.

En France déjà, c'est assez difficile, car les Cultores sont très éparpillés en France, et nous ne pouvons pour l'instant nous voir que deux fois par an,

la CPR d'italie fait plus de rencontres, conviviales, de rites, et nous essayons de prendre exemple sur eux.

salve
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Publius Iunius Brutus » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:31 am

A Roman / Roman "Nation" does not have, nor needs a territory under its jurisdiction, because it is no longer a political state but a spiritual Nation.
Consequently, the "Roman Republic" is a non-homogeneous group of cultures, peoples, communities and free individuals united around Romanity, not in the form of a political and juridical state, a temporal authority , But of a free fraternity.
Obviously, it is necessary to have hierarchies, roles for everyone, in this case to manage the community, the forum, the website, and a lot of things. I understand why there are titles inside the discussion forum, and why there are titles allocated for the Pontifical Colleges. This is completely normal. I understand why there are votes, based on the former Republic. The Roman Nation is not a tyranny.

I think that your most important objective is to federate - strengthen the "Provinces" and above all to ally you with the existing community in Europe (CPR and Pharia), which can bring you a lot, especially in terms of Cultus Deorum, spirituality and Of religion.

I understand your difficulty because if we are all connected via the Internet, we are very distant from each other, so it is difficult to officiate the Cultus Deorum Romanorum together.

In France already, it is quite difficult, because the Cultores are very scattered in France, and we can for the moment see us only twice a year,

The CPR of italy makes more encounters, convivial, rites, and we try to take example on them.

Salve


Brutus sal.

Niger, your post summarizes the current situation well. My personal hope is that we increase local contact by a few means.

First, we need to increase awareness that we are all infact part of a spiritual community. Despite being physically spread apart at the moment we are spiritual nation. This awareness increases our collective sense of community and is the spark that allows us to use our resources to build and grow. We are lucky to live in this period of history. The online tools available here allow for the existence of this national community as it provides us a means to communicate and build irrespective of geographic location. Next we must take this advantage and translate it with increasing capacity within local areas.

Second, we must use the infrastructure to build up our international efforts to assist local communities. We can use our resources to help increase awareness of the Gods and grow our population. We can use our resources to support existing local groups. We can also help citizens to found new groups. Here the experience of existing groups can be very helpful to the new groups being founded.

In this way we are a nation and family of cultores. The sacra Publica always mirrored elements of the Sacra Privata. To use this analogy - for the Sacra Publica the respublica is the city, the local groups are the individual families within the city. Both the city and the family benefit from assisting and growing together. Republic and regional community are symbiotic and linked.
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Publius Iulius Albinus » Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:06 am

I think that when it comes to the idea of a neo-Roman micro-nation, the whole project is undesirable. It was one of the things that hamstrung Nova Roma, and ultimately created its rather schizophrenic identity. All of which has caused it to kinda implode. So right off the bat, a micro-nation model had demonstrated itself to be unworkable. Doubly so if it tries to shallowly copy the ancient Roman system of government, as Nova Roma did. There were a lot of things wrong with the ancient Roman polity, namely an array of illiberal, authoritarian, and chauvinistic tendencies and institutions. Recreating that in carbon-copy is not desirable either, as it flies in the face of the actualisation of individual freedom and progress.

I trust that we've learned from the past, when it comes to that. I mean, here we are, having sprung up in reaction to the failure of Nova Roma to live up to its identity. And while this organisation has carried over the use of historical Roman terms for its management and officers, it's not a shallow copy of something ancient as an affectation. It's not an attempt at "playing" at the Roman identity, and I recognise that. But we do have to be careful about what we conceive ourselves as. I agree with Brutus in that we are a "spiritual nation" rather than a political one, and that's the best way to handle it. Look to organising locally in parallel to RR. Look towards working with your local area in a more direct sense, too--your local gods and spirits, the spirits of your home and ancestors.

And I agree with L. Metellius Niger on the web being primarily a tool. The internet is great to discuss things, link us together, and as an organisational took. But the real work we do is going to be local and domestic. I also think that it's prudent to do outreach not just with fellow cultores locally, but other people in the Pagan community.
These being the words of Publius Iulius Albinus Alexander.
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Re: What do we mean by a spiritual Roman nation? What role does the Roman Republic play?

Postby Lucius Metilius Niger » Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:56 pm

And I agree with L. Metellius Niger on the web being primarily a tool. The internet is great to discuss things, link us together, and as an organisational took. But the real work we do is going to be local and domestic. I also think that it's prudent to do outreach not just with fellow cultores locally, but other people in the Pagan community.
:D thanks
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