[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4855: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4857: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4858: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4859: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
Roman Republic: Res publica Romana • View topic - Thoughts about the Cultus in our modern days

Thoughts about the Cultus in our modern days

This message board is dedicated to the ancient Roman Religion, the Cultus Deorum Romanorum. Here both historical practices and the living modern tradition is to be celebrated and discussed. The members of the Collegium Pontiificum and Collegium Augurum host this board as moderators and are happy to answer questions.

Re: Thoughts about the Cultus in our modern days

Postby Gaius Florius Aetius » Sun May 29, 2016 9:11 pm

Oh dear.

You see, without going into any detail, I am semi-active in RL politics. And that is as much politics as I can bear. Western Europe seems to go to hell in a handbasket, as it seems, and that is all the "complication" I can bear as a political advisor in RL. If a private organization goes that way, I stay outside of such struggles, but frankly they are of no interest to me.

Here, I am a "Seeker", a creative person and a philosopher. I see my role solely as offering ideas, nothing more. I offer about that what is asked of me to contribute, but I never involve myself in any level of politics save the political direction of the Republic of Germany, where I am somewhat involved. So you may understand that working in politics again in another sphere is just not something will ever involve myself in. I see myself as a Priest, because I know Gods "speak" to me now and then in my life and I think it is my calling to try to bring people on a path to understand the Divine a bit better. That is what I can offer. But laws and officials, rules and regulations... my other part of life is FULL to the brim with that and in such debates here I stay away. With all due respect to that. If anyone asks, it is my view that anything beside a real life national government is made with minimal government. But that is just my private, plebeian view, after having been involved in the leadership of plenty of groups. Regulate only what absolutely, totally has to be. I know my very libertarian view on organizing and leading has time and again brought me the critique to be too soft. But that is how I feel. I truly am convinced that people should have a great level of individual freedom to chose their own course and have their own resposibility. Because, frankly, I have never ever seen ANY debate in Pagan, Spiritual or other circles, where a person could be convinced by debate to see things different than he/she already saw. So at some point years ago I just stopped wishing to convice people of anything. I just say what I do and why, and people either think, hey that inspires me to try it, or it doesn't and then that's fine too. Tho I am aware some people like something more defined and structured.


Let me be as honest as humanly possible. When I read such a law-text... every fiber of my being rebels against it. And it has zero to do with what I like or not like, because in private I am a relatively conservative person. But: it never will work. I am telling you that as I see it, as a Social Scientist as well as one who was in plenty of groups. Modern people are way too individualized. I am the first person to critizise the level of hyper-individualization we have. But it will never work in our time and society. Period. If the majority wants to try that, fine, I believe in democracy. But my 5 cents is: dont. Just dont write texts like that and call that "law". At all. It will never ever work out to anything productive, and you deceive yourself if you think it does. I am sorry if that hurts some people or sounds arrogant. Trust me when I say this out of love and care and respect for this very cool project which I want to see succeed and prosper. And that is the only time I will comment on such "politics", because I want to contribute to spirituality and culture and as I said for said reasons not involve myself into group-internal politics whatsoever.


Honestly, I feel I am not really adequate to converse my ideas by writing so well, I am much better in speaking and listening than writing. I really wish I could meet you guys all and we could talk over all this in a real dialogue than "on paper", but me being a poor fool (haha), I can't even afford to travel in Germany let alone to the US. XD
Advice is judged by results, not by intentions.

- Cicero
User avatar
Gaius Florius Aetius
Apollinis Sacerdos
Apollinis Sacerdos
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 12:01 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Thoughts about the Cultus in our modern days

Postby Lucius Vitellius Triarius » Mon May 30, 2016 6:06 am

Yep, that is exactly what happened. It failed miserably and only caused great discontent with everyone.
L VITELLIVS TRIARIVS
lvtriarius AT yahoo DOT com



Image
User avatar
Lucius Vitellius Triarius
Apollinis Sacerdos
Apollinis Sacerdos
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:36 am
Location: Eastern Tennessee, USA

Re: Thoughts about the Cultus in our modern days

Postby Gaius Florius Aetius » Mon May 30, 2016 6:17 am

So much meta theory. ^^

Ok, I promise I will write entirely about practical suggestions now. As I said, I started a small personal project, and I will copy a few parts of my "Roman Religion Workbook". I always think a debate about practical ideas is more fruitful than a meta-debate. Coming soon. (tm) ^^
Advice is judged by results, not by intentions.

- Cicero
User avatar
Gaius Florius Aetius
Apollinis Sacerdos
Apollinis Sacerdos
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 12:01 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Thoughts about the Cultus in our modern days

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Mon May 30, 2016 2:08 pm

[quote]
The Religio Romana will not come under attack with intent to remove or replace the Religio Romana as the State religion of Nova Roma; and that the Religio Romana shall not be deliberately slandered, defamed, or mocked with intent to undermine its position as the State Religion of Nova Roma.
No elected official shall use their elected powers or political status as a means of working to undermine, remove, or replace the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma.
No Citizen or Magistrate shall actively encourage public disrespect for the Gods of Rome, or actively advocate the non-practice of the Religio Romana no matter what their personal beliefs.[quote]

The religious "civil war" was before my time in NR, but the "cultores" are demonized up to the present day there. But reading the above text, I cannot see what is wrong with it. If this is what triggered the "civil war", then I understand why everything went downhill after that in NR. Such a law would be absolutely fine with me.

Aetius, you are right. The formalized Roman way of the cult is not very attractive for the majority of people. It is probably the reason for the downfall of the religio and its replacement by mystery cults and ultimately Christianity. It is attractive to me personally, but I am certainly not representative for the majority.
So your approach is reasonable and probably should be followed in order for the religio to become more attractive. A certain flexibility seems to be needed, if we want to reach modern people. Unfortunately I cannot contribute much to it, since I am not a "spiritual" person. But I can live with a modernized version of the Cultus Deorum, if this is what it takes to promote the religio.

It is nice to see this new input and new ideas.
User avatar
Gaius Florius Lupus
 
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:33 am
Location: Africa Magna

Re: Thoughts about the Cultus in our modern days

Postby Lucius Vitellius Triarius » Mon May 30, 2016 5:12 pm

Yes, Lupus, it looks harmless. The problem with the decretum was not the content, but the power of the CP to declare at will what was and was not blasphemy, with no appeal. What one might think is blasphemy, another might not think so. The issue that arose was the CP's unlimited power to define an individual's personal beliefs as blasphemy, and therefore, systematically over time purge NR of non-cultores. It was the ultimate mixing of politics and religion. A very nasty thing. In the end, the cultors lost. It was the typical political power play scenario that haunts that place. The whole thing gives me a headache just thinking about it.
L VITELLIVS TRIARIVS
lvtriarius AT yahoo DOT com



Image
User avatar
Lucius Vitellius Triarius
Apollinis Sacerdos
Apollinis Sacerdos
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:36 am
Location: Eastern Tennessee, USA

Re: Thoughts about the Cultus in our modern days

Postby Lucius Curtius Paullus » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:51 pm

Lucius Vitellius Triarius, I bought your books when they first came out. I liked it a lot.

Lucius Curtius Paullus
Lucius Curtius Paullus

-Iupiter omnipotens, audacibus annue coeptis-
Lucius Curtius Paullus
Augur
Augur
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:15 pm
Location: Florence Arizona

Re: Thoughts about the Cultus in our modern days

Postby Lucius Vitellius Triarius » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:32 pm

Ave Paullus!

I don't refer to them as my books. They are the compiled works of many cultores over many years in NR. You are probably in there somewhere, LOL! The content is the first fruits of reconstructionist efforts over virtually two decades. The are the starting points in the modern cultus. In 20 years we will all read the stuff and probably think, "What the heck were they thinking?" There are things going on here in RR that will make much of the handbook Kindergarten material soon, which I am very excited about. Philo, Brutus, Nero and others are working diligently within the Societas Numaea to drastically improve upon the perceptions and modern practices of the religio Romana, and they have many things on the future agenda. It is a truly exciting time at this point in history, and a time where self-publishing is virtually easy. Hopefully, we will see new books on the religio Romana coming out all over everywhere soon!

Optime vale
L VITELLIVS TRIARIVS
lvtriarius AT yahoo DOT com



Image
User avatar
Lucius Vitellius Triarius
Apollinis Sacerdos
Apollinis Sacerdos
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:36 am
Location: Eastern Tennessee, USA

Re: Thoughts about the Cultus in our modern days

Postby Caeso Cispius Laevus » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:12 am

I must agree. The previous books compiled by Triarius fill a need. But a new generation of material is needed. We need people who are academically skilled to review all the evidence. A task that will require several scholars due to the volume of sources. These experts in the evidence must then sit down together, compare notes and translate the sources into modern practice. The traditions need to be plainly explained and outlined for the average cultor. This needs to be the next book. I hope this republic will be in spark to ignite such a project.
User avatar
Caeso Cispius Laevus
Propraetor
Propraetor
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 9:37 am
Location: Britannia

Re: Thoughts about the Cultus in our modern days

Postby Aulus Albinius Agrinus » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:50 pm

Gaius Florius Aetius, thank you for your thoughtful posting. Thank you too to those who replied on the subject, I appreciated all of the thoughts. I think what we are struggling with is the perennial problem of myth: giving people both meaning and experience. Meaning is relatively simple. We and our ancestors live in a human world of wildly differing and competing meanings. Believing in something is simple to do. Just pick up the forms, stand in the right place, say the words, observe the rituals. Conform.

Experience is different. A vital myth should at least offer a sense of connection and of shattering. Connecting the self to the self, the family, the community. Also, it must be able to shatter the self, to lend a consciousness that defies merely selfish concerns, connects to the divine, the ineffable, and informs one's day-to-day when "normality" returns.

The two do not compete, meaning and experience. They are parts of one engine: myth (or, religion, if one prefers). Lose one part of the engine, lose the myth. Or, at least lose its vitality. Myths can trot along for lifetimes without fully doing their jobs and most people seldom notice.

You discussed a very important truth: we are not the same people as those that lived two thousand years ago. Our consciousnesses are so very different. What we know, what we accept, what informs our thinking and our choices, our relationships to each other, our human community, our place in the universe. Our minds are not like those minds that experienced the same things all those years ago.

So, what are we to do? We hold a fascination for the myth and the consciousnesses of that singular Roman past. Otherwise we would not be here. Do we study them as an archaeologist or historian studies a people, place and time? Create intellectual dioramas of a past we seek to know and not bother with experience apart from outward appearances and simple understanding of facts? Do we instead seek to know the facts, but also twist and fit and form our 21st century spiritual consciousness into that past experience? See what happens? Do we seek a hybrid, perhaps? Understand the past, its forms, its rituals, its meanings, and then blend our consciousness with that and see what experience, if any, comes out of it, what new meanings arise? Is there ever one right answer or choice?

Let's find out. I think it could be interesting, maybe even fun.

Thank you again for the thoughtful original posting and replies. This is my first posting here, my first public appearance among any of you. If I have erred in any ways please know that it was out of ignorance, not willfulness. I look forward to your thoughts, and I will follow any instructions on what I could do right or better in this or any forum in the community.

Aulus Albinius Agrinus

//
User avatar
Aulus Albinius Agrinus
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:48 am

Re: Thoughts about the Cultus in our modern days

Postby Gaius Curtius Philo » Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:07 pm

Salve Albini!

It is a pleasure to meet you. This is truly a very complex discussion and one that probably wont fade for a long long time. Any contribution to the discussion is greatly appreciated and your input was both civil and thoughtful so do not worry.

I think one thing that is partially the cause of this confusion is the relationship between Faith and Religion that started to get blurry after the take over of christianity. "Faith" or Fides in ancient times meant something very different then now a days and it was completely unintangled from Religion. Faith today is a blind belief in something. It is to believe out of belief's sake. It is to trust without proof. And it become so much used to speak of religion that it became even a synonimous. To this day people speak of their Faith when what they mean is their Religion. In ancient times, Fides was a relation of trust between individuals or groups grounded on mutual obligation and proven or rational trust. It was a two way street in which the divine was but a part of. It related to the Contract existing between Men and Gods, of mutual assistence and friendship. The Gods were their patrons and humans Their clientes, one helping the other, protecting each other and honoring one another. The belief in that relationship was Fides, the relationship itself was called Pietas, Piety. Religio on the other hand was a religious obligation or prohibition. It was the idea that humans owed something to the Gods out of tradition. It was the tradition in which humans sacrificed and related to the Gods in a specific way. Basically, it was an orthopraxic relationship in which you did X because your father did X and your grandfather before you, or because the God asked for X to be done. In turn, her would respond to you with benevolence and friendship.

In all this you do not see any mention of doctrine or spiritual growth or even of ethics properly speaking. That is because these things were completely unrelated to Religio. Faith was completely unrelated with Religion. They were two seperate things. One did not need yo believe in the Gods. One just needed to sacrifice to them in the proper respecting manner.

For some this might seem wrong in a way, but that is only because they were conditioned from childhood with a christian mentality. Belief is engrained in their psyche as an essential part of the religious experience. Like a drug. But in truth it is a very freeing and calming notion. Ethics are not tied by religion, so it has space to grow independent from it. What does the Cultus Deorum think about gay rights? Woman's rights? Racism? Nothing. Who think those things are humans and we alone must face these questions. We cannot hide behind our old books and deal judgement on minorities because the "Gods said so". We must face our evil and recognize it as something coming grom within us and we can free ourselves from it. The Cultus can adapt to all ethical changes of society, all it asks is that the Form of dealing Specifically with the Gods is maintained intact.

The Cultus is not made to control minds. It is not made to dictate how you or I should live. It does not fall upon us like lords over slaves. And most people unfortunetly still cant accept that. They like their chains well oiled, but they still want chains. They need them. If they are not enslaved to the Gods in a way they feel they are not spiritually satisfied. The Cultus can free them from that. The Cultus says that their beliefs, their ethics, even their view on the Gods themselves and the myths related to them are completely Personal matters. That as freemen we can think whatever we wish ofnboth the world and the Gods. That our mind is our own. It is incredible really. Freeing. Within the Cultus we become the masters of our own minds and that frightens people. What will I believe? Who will I follow? Believe in what you feel is right. Lead the way for your own spirituality. All the Gods ask for is orthopraxy, not Orthodoxy. They just ask to be venerated in the proper traditional manner. How you interpret that tradition, how you interpret the Gods, how you interpret reality, all these things are under your control and have nothing to do with religion. And I think that is beautiful.
"Ignis aurum probat" - Seneca
C. Curtius L. f. Vot. Philo Aurelianus
User avatar
Gaius Curtius Philo
 
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:56 pm
Location: Praia Grande, São Paulo, Brazil

PreviousNext

Return to Cultus Deorum Romanorum

cron