Talk II: Are there any Gods or God?

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Talk II: Are there any Gods or God?

Postby Caeso Cispius Laevus » Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:16 am

Salvete Omnes!

This is the second part of my discussion series on the Gods.

In this talk I want to discuss the existence or non-existence for God(s). I am not addressing the number of Gods in this talk. I want to simply focus on the argument for or against theism.

First, I will start with my logic on this question. In applying this logic I draw heavily upon the idea of natural philosophy. I talked more about this within the following message - viewtopic.php?f=7&t=607

Here is by argument for the existence of one or more God.

I. The existence of the universe is either due to its own necessity and nature or due to an external cause.

II. If the existence of the universe is due to an external cause then at least one God exists. I defined what a God is here - viewtopic.php?f=7&t=607

III. The existence of the universe is not due to its own necessary nature.

IV. Therefore, the universe is due to an external cause and I and III are explained.

V. Hence, at least one God exists and II and IV are explained.

How do you approach these questions? What do you think of the argument made?

Valete
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Re: Talk II: Are there any Gods or God?

Postby Marcus Minucius Audens » Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:54 pm

Master Laevus;

Well, I am not an officer in the RR, and I don't have a classical education, as I am much more of a "hands on" kind of person. A long time ago, I looked at a microscopic view of a blade of grass and from that view, I came to the conclusion that very probably there was a greater knowledge operating in the known universe than silly man. However, just what that is, I do not know and I find that I really do not care, since I doubt that it will be interested in me and what I think or do. However, dressing up and going to church, whatever church that may be, seems to me to be talking to a false god. Since there are so many floating around, most of whom come straight out of somebody's overactive imagination. One of my parents died because of the beliefs of her religion. The other one, a very good man, died at the age of fifty because of another individual, whose name I have never been given. I guess that people know me too well! My father was a believer in Christ, but did not atend church. I am sure someone would sa that was the reason he died young. I know better. My Mother attended church religously but did not believe in desease or infection. For that she died.

As I have said, the forest provides me with a cool and quiet place where I can think things out, and my views, memories, and wishes are there for any who can see into my mind. Gods are supposed to have that ability, I believe. My thoughts are often directed to who that myserious entity in the universe may be, but I have no assurances that they have been heard or acted upon because, I guess I don't see images of personages that are supposed to either solve or correct problems.

So, all the stories and myths are enjoyable to read, but as to the strength of gods who manipulate us, and who suffer the same stupidities that rule the human race, such is a little too much for me. Yes, there were well-known people in history, but when they died, nobody knows what happens then, and most of what we know about these personages is myth and story dreamed up by people for their own purposes. Frankly, the idea of a spirit who can control the movement of galaxies and still be interested in the creation of a single grass stem which lives and thrives, is a tad too far for my imagination, just as a God or Goddess who is jealus, overbearing, fanatical, and a drunkard is not up to my views either. Wel what about the Devil then, some might say. My response would be that the human race produces those who are just about as fully evil as any myth you can suppose or dream up. It is best to be very careful in dealing with people like that! Given gods to worship some go even beyond evil and become totaly insane.

The above are my beliefs, and ideas, and they are my own and they do not bear on anyone's alternate beliefs, however at the end of your story, you did ask what I thought about your ideas, and now you have them. You might ask why I am here in RR, and my answer would be that I enjoy studying the Roman Military. I also study the Medieval Military, and the US Civil War Military, and in the past I have immersed myself in the Rev. War Military. I am a military man, having spent twenty years in the US Military serving in submarines. Now there is a service that teaches basic ideas and the penalty for not learning such well, is that the boat never surfaces again! Once you face that, or something similar, myths and wild stories, don't mean much any more!

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
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Re: Talk II: Are there any Gods or God?

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:28 pm

Salvete omnes!

I do not quite understand what the existence of the universe has to do with the question, whether there are gods or not.
About the existence of the gods can be no doubt, since you can easily verify it empirically. Look up into the sky, there is Sol Invictus! Your house is built on Tellus. Tiberinus is a river that passes through Rome. That Caesar and Augustus were historical persons can also hardly be doubted.

The question about the origin or non-origin of the universe belongs to natural philosophy, i.e. physics, not to religion.
As a philosopher one should realize that the mentioned argument makes no sense.
An external cause of the universe is self-contradicting. The meaning of the word "cause" implies that it is prior to its effect. This requires the existence of time, which is as we know part of the universe. The idea of causality without time is irrational. It is like asking about a triangular circle. Its existence is excluded by its own definition.

Causality and time require each other, since they are both expressions of the same thing.
Since we know that the universe exists, there are two possiblities.
1. The universe is eternal.
2. The universe came into existence spontaneously.

Contrary to popular belief, the first possibility has not been disproved by modern physics. It is unknown, if our known universe is only a bubble of a bigger, eternal one.
If the universe came into existence spontaneously, then (as Epicurus already concluded long ago) it will necessarily happen again an infinite number of times, since there is nothing to prevent spontaneous appearances of universes, as the existence of ours shows.
Therefore the totality of all the spontaneously appearing universes would also constitute an infinite world, ob better an infinity of worlds, which would be in itself eternal.

Therefore the concept of an origin of the world is meaningless. The world either has no origin and is eternal or it is an infinite sequence of finite universes, whereby "sequence" does not imply a temporal order.
In any case you can bury the concept of a "creator". It is self-contradictory and explains nothing. Whatever creator or creators you might think of, they would still need to be part of a higher "world" with its own time and causality, whose origin you would need to explain. So you would not have explained anything but only have shifted the problem to a higher level (In children's language: Who is the creator of the creator?)

It is deplorable that so many people have been wasting their time trying to answer a question, which has a logical flaw in itself.

Valete!
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Re: Talk II: Are there any Gods or God?

Postby Marcus Minucius Audens » Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:41 pm

Master Gaus Florius Lupus;

First, I should like to apologize, as it is obvious that I answered the wrong question, Please ignore my past statement. You asked for views on the subject, and I thought that such was what you wanted. However, your labeling of my views as "not making any sense, self-contradicting, irrational, meaningless, and thinking in children's language," was not my idea of a response to a request for views. Normally, I do not and would not allow anyone to speak to me in that manner. It is apparent that you believe your philosophy. To me, your words make little sense, and so it must be apparent to you that I do not believe any part of your rather irritating and seemingly superior explanation. Again my apologies for answering your question. I was not aware that another view would be so attacked!

With Respect;
Marcus Audens
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Re: Talk II: Are there any Gods or God?

Postby Caeso Cispius Laevus » Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:15 pm

Audens, no one is attacking you. My view was also being argued. This is a gentlemanly and intellectual debate. :D

I will soon issue my own response to the questions raised by Lupus.
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Re: Talk II: Are there any Gods or God?

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:34 pm

Salve, Marce Audens!

I did not refer to your post, I answered to the original question, which was also not asked by me. Please verify who has made which post, before you write an answer. I have noticed several times now that you attribute posts to the wrong author.

Cispi Laeve, I am glad that you have brought up this topic, because it is an important one. Whatever criticism I may have, nothing is meant personal. Your concept of a god actually represents two millennia of Western thought. So you are in good company. It is just that I think hat the last two millennia of Western theology went into the wrong direction. So when I criticize you, it is actually aimed at the entire Western civilization and its approach to religion. Do not take it personal.

Valete!
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Re: Talk II: Are there any Gods or God?

Postby Marcus Minucius Audens » Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:02 pm

Master Gaius Florius Lupus;

I will accept your explanation for its worth shown by your reasoning. However, in my view, severe criticisms of any opinions when discussing ideas far from the realm of reality, is not only unnecessary but can be mistaken for insult. As far as I am concerned, this subject is closed.

Marcus Audens
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Re: Talk II: Are there any Gods or God?

Postby Marcus Minucius Audens » Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:09 pm

Master Laevus;
After some 79 years of similar experience, I well know when I have been insulted or severely criticized. I do not require someone half my age to tell me when such has occurred. :lol: :roll:
Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
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Re: Talk II: Are there any Gods or God?

Postby Caeso Cispius Laevus » Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:41 pm

Marcus Minucius Audens wrote:Master Laevus;
After some 79 years of similar experience, I well know when I have been insulted or severely criticized. I do not require someone half my age to tell me when such has occurred. :lol: :roll:
Respectfully;
Marcus Audens


Very well friend, just trying to keep things civil. :)
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Re: Talk II: Are there any Gods or God?

Postby Gaius Florius Lupus » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:15 am

Comments addressing the actual topic would be appreciated.
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