September 14, 2020 at 9:34 pm #39723
Salvete! I proclaim by my power as Praetor a new edict that will reform and enhance the current Gentes system. It is optional for citizens but a good way for new citizens to connect and for you all to meet new people! Read the official edict below.
This is being done to give an initial support group to people who first join the Res Publica and are lost on how and what to do within our Republic. For those who are new things can be overwhelming and the Gens system will establish the Pater as a role model and guide for new members who join. This being said, anyone who wishes to be Pater of their Gens must have the time and dedication to show new members the basics of the Republic.
If anyone has any questions, concerns, ideas, etc please don’t hesitate to contact myself here or in a private message!
Valete!September 14, 2020 at 9:39 pm #39725
I hope I did everything correctly. I’m having to do everything while I’m at work so if I missed anything, made any errors, etc please also let me know!September 15, 2020 at 12:21 pm #39729
Lucius Flavius TheophilusDenarii: 𐆖 78.10PlebeiusSarmatia
My friend, this is a great idea. Gens are necessary and important, I even changed my name to join the coolest Flavian family)))
But what you did is great, but it was four years late … you were ahead of you, my friend, because there is already a rule about this, and for a long time. We Flavias have been using these rules for years, even though everyone has forgotten about them. But this is not your fault, I have been from the very beginning of the republic, I remember this, but you could not have known about it. Our leader Flavius Severus correctly says that this organization needs one single code as a general law, if there was one, you would not have issued this edict, because there is already a corresponding law.
But you are great, you paid attention to this topic, so maybe someone will compete with the Flavia, otherwise we have survived both Aurelians and Cassians)))September 15, 2020 at 3:43 pm #39732
Titus Flavius SeverusDenarii: 𐆖 1,163.90PatriciusSarmatia
I agree with Theophilus. A good example of the fact that the legal system of the Republic is vast, redundant, unsystematic and incomprehensible to many, if not most. The materials you need are hard to find. Therefore, we should focus on the project of reforming legislation and creating a unified Codex as a source of law, which systematizes, summarizes and supplements legislation.
Gens issues are regulated by Lex Atia De Gentibus et Gentilibus Conventis.
This document is the fruit of the creativity of our good friend and excellent citizen Gaius Curtius Philo, who did a good job on this issue, but his work was forgotten and unclaimed.
Here is a link to interesting topics and sections on this topic:
The unilateral and uncoordinated abolition of citizens’ communities also affected Gens, leading to what we are now seeing.
Caesar, thank you for bringing this up.September 15, 2020 at 7:27 pm #39733
The fact that I can’t even access this content stated above by Titus due to it being on the old site and my password was changed is in itself, a problem. I agree we need a one stop place for every lex, edict, procedure, etc. Old laws such as this should be reviewed, updated or simply destroyed. This edict will stand for now, as we are moving forward we can use this, instead of the old lex to modify and work from. I will be putting out my ideas as proposals and edicts soon. I check every document here on the new RR site before I do anything, so if it’s not here then it’s out dated. I will bring this up with the admins as we work to modernize and correct this blatant issue of unsystematic categorizing.September 15, 2020 at 7:51 pm #39735
I will also be going over all of our current lex, edicts, etc and updating them to match our current website and goals. I will be putting everything into a single spot so there can be no confusion. If there isn’t a law for it in this place then it simply does not exist. We need one central place for everyone to access our lex, or operating procedures. This is a must. It’s essential, especially for someone like me, a young magistrate. If I myself after looking over everything I could in every category of our bibliotheca could not find what I needed then it is an issue. I should only have to look in one place, and soon that will be so.September 15, 2020 at 9:48 pm #39742
Salvete! I have been working hard and talking with my fellow magistrate. All lex, edicts, etc not on the website now are null and cancelled. We had a big reform last year that nullified most of the ineffective legislation put forward and everything still active has been moved. I took it upon myself to move all our legislation to one spot to better keep track of everything. This link is as follows:
This will contain every official piece of official legislation and as of now includes everything we have active.September 16, 2020 at 6:59 am #39747
Marca MarciaDenarii: 𐆖 55.10PlebeiusSarmatia
All lex, edicts, etc not on the website now are null and cancelled.
The question itself begs: “Who decided that?”.
I myself have been a magistrate in the past, so I have some understanding of how it works. Proconsul Severus cited a link to the law, if this law is abolished, then you need to provide a link to the corresponding law repealing the first law.
Wouldn’t the current magistrates be so kind in showing the legal basis for repealing the law?)
P.S. The unified code of laws is an unconditional way out of such problematic moments.September 16, 2020 at 10:33 am #39749
Lex Atia was abolished on June 9, 2019 as part of the process of simplifying operating procedures. The thread is here. http://www.romanrepublic.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2472
All CC and senate archives are here.September 16, 2020 at 3:40 pm #39751
Tiberius Flavius NervaDenarii: 𐆖 48.90PlebeiusSarmatia
So Iunius Brutus you are saying that a small group of people can repeal this lex, which has been adopted by many citizens in the people’s assembly? But this is completely contrary to Roman history. It turns out that the Senate and the people’s assemblies are just decorations, and that it is not citizens who rule, but only the comitia curiata?
I’m shocked, how is this even possible? Then why pay taxes, vote, if nothing depends on us and everything can be decided, canceled by a group of people. It is not right, it is not fair.
So ResPublica have to be immediately renamed to ResComitiaCuriata.September 16, 2020 at 9:37 pm #39752
So Iunius Brutus you are saying that a small group of people can repeal this lex, which has been adopted by many citizens in the people’s assembly? But this is completely contrary to Roman history. It turns out that the Senate and the people’s assemblies are just decorations, and that it is not citizens who rule, but only the comitia curiata? I’m shocked, how is this even possible? Then why pay taxes, vote, if nothing depends on us and everything can be decided, canceled by a group of people. It is not right, it is not fair. So ResPublica have to be immediately renamed to ResComitiaCuriata.
I encourage you to assess the original functions of the Comitia Curiata. The involvement of the senate or any other assembly over the Comitia Curiata in the topic of gentes is actually a deviation from the historical tradition. Assuming we want to replicate that tradition 1:1.September 17, 2020 at 3:32 pm #39766
Quintus Vergilius CrassusDenarii: 𐆖 249.10PlebeiusSarmatia
Junius Brutus, it is obvious that Flavius Nerva touched on a completely different topic, and it concerns both history and jurisprudence. What you, Junius Brutus, wrote in response to Flavius Nerva, is actually a translation of the topic in a different direction, it is suitable for those who do not understand the history and what is happening in the Roman republic.
The indignation of Flavius Nerva is due to the fact that the comitia of the curiata is an infinitely powerful body that can repeal the laws passed by the national assembly. The point is not about what the law was about, the point is that the law passed by the People’s Assembly was canceled by the kuriyata comitia by a simple decision. This is a complete historical absurdity and violation of all the rules on which the republican system was built.
The very fact that the comitia of the curiata is capable of repealing the laws passed at the national assembly turns it into an almighty body, violates any system of checks and balances, destroys the very idea of republican rule. This was not the case in historical Rome. This simply could not be in Republican Rome.
If the comitia of the curiata can repeal a law passed by the people’s assembly, then what is the point of voting at all? What is the point in the electoral system, if all decisions can be canceled by the committee of the curia, and in return any decisions can be made on any issue. Flavius Nerva quite rightly said that in such a position of the comitia of the curiata, all other organs such as popular assemblies, the Senate, magistrates, elections, these are just decorations, something completely optional, as if disguising the power of the only real authority – the curiata comitia. The Senate and the people of Rome are now like children who are allowed to play in their sandbox by the comitia of the curiata.
The Republic had a system of checks and balances. For example, the Senate could not meet by itself, this required a magistrate. The magistrate was elected by the popular assembly, which also could not meet by itself. The comitia is the assembly of the people. Our comitia curiata is not a gathering of the people, because the people are not represented there. The first composition of the comitia of the curiata appointed itself, the composition of the comitia itself elects new members, while the comitia assembles of its own accord. What is historically correct in this and similar to a real curiate comitia? Nothing. It is simply an omnipotent and unhistorical body that has been named the comitia of the curiata.
Junius Brutus, I am a historian, your answer to Flavius Nerva may mislead those who do not know Roman history, but this does not work with the Sarmatians, we are well versed in history, well enough to understand the essence of the problem.
Me and Flavius Severus, during the election of the Master Lictor to the comitia of the Curiata, wrote that it was important, the citizens did not hear us, everyone thought that this was just another empty talk of the Sarmatians. But we drew attention to the omnipotence and redundancy of the power of the comitia of the curiata, but again they did not hear us. Junius Brutus, you yourself removed the Sarmatians from their posts in the kuriat comitia, you introduced your majority there, you created a lobby there. But this is not just a lobby, it is a lobby in the only organ of the Roman Republic that has real powers. You are the real ruler, you may not have a title, but the title is not important. Perhaps there would have been no problems, but the comitia under your control made the wrong decisions, which you proposed. If there was at least some balance of power in the comitia of the curiata, then we would have talked about this problem much later, there are other things, but there is no balance, there is simply your majority, which, as recent events have shown, you are carefully trying to preserve.
Why can’t I see anything like this in Nova Roma? Where is the omnipotent comitia of the curiat? Where is the comitia the Senate princeps can gather?
If the comitia of the curiata has the power to repeal laws, then what is the point in Flavius Severus’s draft of the Code, if this entire Code can be canceled at any time by a simple decision of the comitia of the curiata? If you, Junius Brutus, have a bad mood or a new “brilliant” reformatory idea, as with colleges and families, you will collect a comitia curiata and simply abolish this code. What’s stopping you? You will vote “for”, your wife, and your two comrades, and the opinion of the remaining two Sarmatians, as always, will mean nothing. This destroys confidence in the organization and the future. No guarantees, because everything depends on you. Now in Nova Roma there is no such thing, they made a conclusion from the past, and the Roman Republic did not draw conclusions, because all power is in the hands of one person. What then is the point of working for a project of one person and not having any guarantees that the mistakes of this person will not be postponed in the future? Where does the belief in the future come from in this organization?September 17, 2020 at 5:38 pm #39767
The CC is legally the board of directors of RR Inc. A historically composed senate cannot be a corporate board as they are not directly elected thus, it would be illegal as per corporate law in most if not all jurisdictions. This is one of the reasons NR has no legal board of directors. So here in the RR we have the CC. A somewhat modern construct required to hold our assets in a non-profit. On the CC I am one vote of 6. This said, I’ve have had my ideas rejected through it before, and will again in the future, no doubt. It is fine. To imply I control the CC is just not accurate. If I did control the CC, I would feel deeply uncomfortable and would be advocating to expand its membership.
Back when the CC canceled Lex Atia it was an extraordinary time. Let’s not forget this. It was unclear if the senate or assemblies could even be called, meet quorum, or would be interested in providing much activity. The fact that only now 15 months later citizens realize this occurred stands as a testament to the lack of interest in the spring of 2019… The CC exists to kick the ball forward when it is unclear if anyone else would be able or willing to move things forward. It exists to safeguard the assets of the people and prevents stasis. It has much power, yes. But the Senate has just as much power to pass protocols. Further, the CC can be recalled, its members expelled as per our bylaws if the civitas feels it is acting against their interests.
Nova Roma could use a CC, badly, very badly. Let’s recap why shall we?
- NR is a group that has been legally incompliant with its place of incorporation for decades! Yes, decades. I imagine it wouldn’t even be allowed to exist as a corporate entity if it was incorporated in a different country…
- NR is a group that can let rouge magistrates blatantly violate its declaration and can do nothing about it but complain
- NR is a group where there is no real accountability for money raised, money was often used to benefit the directors only.
- NR is a group where there is no transparent appeals process or anything really holding admin accountable to the organization itself. People are kicked out on whims. I should know, I was a victim of just such a thing. No appeal, nothing, just booted and “thanked” for my donations.
- NR is a group where electoral deadlocks, election disputes, the composition of the senate etc cannot be sorted out, wait for it… For over 10 years!
- NR is a group that cannot figure out how to pass its own bylaws for years. So it effectively has none…
- NR is a group that cannot regain or control its assets, website, bank account etc for years, maybe forever, it’s still a matter of contention. It is obscene, to be frank.
No single group has set back the interests of the CDR or Romanitas more than NR in modern times. Why? Because NR has zero accountability, zero safeguards during extraordinary events. No one there can agree on who is responsible. Problems are solved by threats from lawyers and pure stubborn standoffs that last +5 years. It would be a comedy if it didn’t also smear the good intent of so many. But it does, so NR is a tragedy.
Don’t insult the res publica by drawing any contrast to what we have here and what Frankinstine like monstrosity has taken form in NR. There are no similarities. Zero.
All of these things mentioned in NR will never happen in the RR. Why? Because we have a real and clearly defined board of directors. A body truly legally (as in legally enforceable by corporate law) accountable to the civitas when normal mechanisms fail in extraordinary times. Who carries liability here is totally clear and indisputable.
The CC isn’t the problem. Very much the opposite. It was crafted directly in response to the lessons learned by the spectacular failure of Nova Roma. It is the very mechanism that should reassure every Roman here that their assets are recoverable and magistrates are held accountable. In ancient times a rouge magistrate would face the mob. In the RR, the last resort of the people is the CC, it is the only thing between the destruction of the RR and safety in such an extreme scenario.
I am no tyrant. I think my actions here speak for themselves. In fact, if there was popular support for my resignation I would tenure it. The Roman Republic and its ultimate success is personally very important to me. I believe from the bottom of my heart that the Roman Republic is incredibly important to our future. I similarly overwhelmingly believe the CC as it exists is essential towards this success, with me on it or not.
Now I would support mos maiorum on when the CC can make or remove lex. Prerequisites for what defines an extraordinary measure requiring such intervention. If the senate thinks this would be useful, we should add such a proposal to the very meeting this month. This way we can improve our system further. I would very much applaud such a well-crafted proposal.
Further, if the people want Lex Atia back, propose it at this coming senate meeting. The canceling of this lex by the CC on an extraordinary basis is 100% reversible. I, however, would not support this, as Lex Atia was not a great lex and I think we can craft a better system for our gentes. Maybe this edict from Praetor Caesar is the first step?
I find accusations that I carry much power somewhat shocking. Historically, I did indeed. Too much power and WAY too much responsibility. A side effect of being a founder. However, today, thankfully, I’m 1/100th as involved in the daily affairs of the RR. This year, for the first time in our history the RR is entering maturity where it seems to be self-sustainable without the constant supervision of the founders. Few things this year make me happier than this fact. I’m incredibly proud of the team administering the Republic this year. We are in good hands.
Where mistakes made during our first founding years? Of course. It was expected that not every decision made would be perfect. We didn’t have a script leading to success. I promise you, more mistakes will be made. But the very fact that the Roman Republic is here today, growing quickly, is active, and has ample generous supporters is testament to the fact that we have done more right than wrong. I think this is what we should be measured against.
Propose fixes for things that need improvement. We debate it, and if the support is there, we adopt what are hopefully improvements. Then we test it out and see if it works and keep refining things. That is, thankfully, our system here.
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