July 5, 2020 at 8:34 pm #38563
Quintus Furius CamillusDenarii: 𐆖 685.00PatriciusBritannia
I’ve been informed that our two praetores, Caesar and Varro have been hard at work, along with our sacerdotes!
Tomorrow the ludi games in honor of Apollo begin. For the first time in modern times, anyone has the opportunity to participate in this ceremony for the sacra publica! You may add incense or a personal statement to be offered to Apollo as part of the collective community sacrifice.
Visit this web page here to participate. http://romanrepublic.org/roma/ludi-ceremony/July 6, 2020 at 11:49 am #38566
Gaius Florius LupusDenarii: 𐆖 231.65PatriciusNo Province
I love this idea to allow all cultores a way of participation in the sacra publica.
In this particular case however I want to express my apologies that I cannot contribute to the offering. For political reasons I harshly condemn the questionable activities of Médecins Sans Frontières. I am not willing to support this despicable organization with a single dollar.
Maybe in the future we can dedicate the 20% to a less controversial cause like some collegium of our own Republic.
The general idea however to bring the sacra publica into the real world is praiseworthy. It is definitely a step in the right direction.
Florius LupusJuly 6, 2020 at 6:11 pm #38567
Quintus Vergilius CrassusDenarii: 𐆖 250.70PatriciusSarmatia
The pursuit of Sacra Public is good. Trying to recreate Ludi’s key religious element is also good. Good things end there.
Smart people, if they don’t know something or doubt something, in order to do something well and avoid mistakes, they consult with specialists. Otherwise, you must be prepared for reasoned criticism.
If you call something Sacra Publica, it does not mean at all that it is Sacra Publica, just because you want it. The point is that if you can’t perform the Sacra Publica correctly, then it’s better not to take it at all, because you simply deliberately break the ritual.
“This ceremony is performed on behalf of the entire community who identify as Romans today.”
There is no such thing – “who identify as Romans today”. There is Civitas. Roman Civitas. The ritual is performed on it`s behalf. A Roman is not one who identifies himself in this way; a Roman is one who is a member of the Roman Civitas.
“This ceremony is performed by a recognized sacerdos (priest) of the Roman Republic.”
I think you should see who performed the ritual in reality, in Roman history. I hope you realize that a ritual that is not properly performed, including if it is performed by an inappropriate person, is a vicious ritual? There is no benefit from it, only harm, and harm to the whole of Civitas. Do not you think that with your actions you can simply harm Civitas in a sacred way?
“anyone has the opportunity to participate in this ceremony for the sacra publica!”
Anyone can not participate in the ritual, people can be present at the production of the ritual, if this is established by tradition.
And here is Sacra Publica and personal donations, any wishes for money? Those who come up with this generally understand what Sacra Publica is? Or in the pursuit of monetization and money, did you decide to cross out the historical tradition? Stop taking the example of TEMPLUM, what they do with their donations and monetization is not Sacra Public at all. Sacra Pablica is a relationship between Civitas and the Gods, where no place for individual citizens, their names and wishes for money?
How are you going to perform the Sacra Public if you simply do not have properly prepared and consecrated places of worship? In principle, this alone is enough to say that this approach is not an act of Sacra Publica, it is a role-playing game based on Roman ludi games theme.
Maybe I’m wrong and you show me historical sources or scientific works that confirm the correctness of your point of view, where specific rituals of Sacra Publica are displayed, such as you are trying to do. But something tells me that there is nothing like that. You just came up with the ceremony and decided to pass it off as Sacra Public.
Well, in the end, what kind of arbitrariness is this? I mean a unilateral unauthorized decision to transfer money to an outside organization. The Senate is the manager of funds (budget), why did you decide what proportion of the funds raised and what needs would be used? Did you decide it yourself? I am a Senator, and I do not see something that the Senate is considering this issue. You didn’t even bother to agree on this issue informally.
Seriously, with this approach, it would be better if you didn’t do anything at all. Once again I am convinced that almost no one here remembers what the Cortus Deorum Romanorum is. You play the game, you are not serious, you distort the rituals so easily that I feel uneasy at the mere thought of how easily you neglect the rules and principles of the Roman Religion.July 6, 2020 at 9:06 pm #38568
Tiberius Terentius VarroDenarii: 𐆖 403.37PlebeiusGallia Mississippia
I actually organized this.
Often magistrates lead these ceremonies. But we also have ample amounts of evidence around flamens and other priests playing an active role.
Our declaration recognizes the existence of a spiritual nation of Romans. Our sacra publica is on behalf of anyone that sees themselves as part of this nation as represented in the public form of the Roman Republic.
The Ludi Apolinares was all about charity. In fact it was funded by the public. We are very much within the historical framework. Offerings made here are funded by the public but collectively make up the sacrifice to be made.
I cannot raise or spend corporate assets (all RR assets are held in the corporation) without approval of the directors (LCM) of said corporation. I have this approval from the LCM.
I am very mindful of improper ceremony and it’s ramifications. This is why I used Societas Numaea protocol and consulted four sacerdotes in drafting the ceremony.
Your perspective of sacra publica is fairly restricted. I dare say somewhat antiquated. I suggested this book for you, On Roman Religion:Lived Roman Religion and the individual.
Bene ValeJuly 6, 2020 at 10:38 pm #38570
Publius Iunius BrutusDenarii: 𐆖 1,260.08PatriciusPacifica
P. Iunius Brutus Sacer. sal.
This is a very interesting discussion. Many of the points raised by both Crassus and Varro are worth exploring further. What is the sacra publica to be is an essential question that only hasn’t been answered today because we lack or lacked a sufficient number of experts in the topic to have a vigorous discussion.
We do have a handful of experts in the CDR now. True experts, people that have studied the historical sources in detail and understand the evidence, and enough of the comparative methods of similar related traditions. But this alone is not enough.
One also needs to have an appreciation for the spiritual needs of today and how the old traditions can fulfil these needs. They need to know where careful and historically mindful adaptation and modification is warranted and in what form it should take. Otherwise, The CDR risks becoming irrelevant to today and more about reenactment or the other extreme, it risks becoming a new tradition all to itself. Neither of these extremes are desirable in my opinion.
As for the ceremony proposed here. I have reviewed it. I think it is actually very beautiful and would easily be recognizable in its intent to the ancients.
I have been asked to perform this ceremony on a new altar donated by the citizens of the Respublica. I feel it is very much sacra publica and like any ceremony done, I will expiate to Apollo if I am in error on this matter.
I look forward to more dialogue on the topic of sacra publica in the months ahead. If you are knowledgeable on this topic I also invite you to participate. Our future sacra publica depends on it. It might be worth while calling a digital conference on this matter and inviting all authorities inside and outside the RR to participate. It would be interesting to see what ideas are out there.
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