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May 20, 2017 at 6:24 pm #2448
I would like to ask this most august body of wise men and women if they may inform me of something. Namely, what formats should a latin report or log follow.
Our good master P. Laevus Tribunus Plebis has shown some example of latin elements in his texts that I find very insightful. For one, he ended one of his report with "Data Novo Eboraco" + the Date. I imagine data is what originated the portuguese word "dada" so I imagine it means "Given". In this sense it would mean "Given at Novum Eboracum", correct? This seems very proper.
I live in a place called "Praia Grande", which means Big Beach, in Provincia Brasilia. If I were to sign a document today would it be proper for me to sign it thusly: "C. Curtius Philo Aurelianus, Trib.Lat.
Data Litore Magno, Provincia Brasilia, a.d. XIII Kal. Iun. L. Curtio L. Aurelio cos."?
Or would I omit the Province? Or would I omit the city? Would be nice if we had a good model officiated by the CL on how we should deal with this, including with latin names for the cities of all our magistrates (Which I can ask them for).May 22, 2017 at 12:28 am #10367
"Data" is plural. This makes sense when several issues are touched. If it is a single one, I would think that "datum" would be a better option.
From a linguistical point of view it might be interesting to note that "Datum" means "date" in German. Medieval commoners in the S.R.I. apparently noticed that the date always went together with the Latin word "datum" in official documents, so they concluded that it meant "date". This could be the way how the word entered the German language.
Vale!May 22, 2017 at 1:39 am #10369
I believe ‘data’ is a perfect passive participle, f, single nom/abl as in ‘littera data’ as ‘this letter was given on …’, but I have seen many ways of dating. e.g. D IIII IDUS FEBR or just V K MAI. There are a number of examples of bronze edicts online, each if dated are different.
LaevusMay 22, 2017 at 9:35 pm #10400
L. Horatia Adamas C. Curtio Philoni P. Sextio Laevo C. Florio Lupo omnibusque S.P.D.
The word ‘data’ is a perfect passive participle (of do, dare, dedi, datus), but like many adjectives, can be used as a substantive. In form it could be neuter plural nominative or accusative, or feminine singular nominative or ablative, although, as Quintilianus noted, the ablative’s long vowel should be marked as such to distinguish it from the nominative. In either case, its basic meaning is ‘given.’ Here the singular ‘datum’ is indeed preferable.
As for actual calendar-type dating, the Romans counted backward from the three fixed dates in every month: the Kalends, the Nones, and the Ides. After the Ides, the Kalends of the next month were the starting point, so today is ante diem XI Kalendas Junias (abbreviated as a.d. XI Kal. Jun.), that is, 11 days before the Kalends of June.
Laeve, the locative is used with the names of cities, so ‘datum Novi Eboraci’ would be used rather than ‘Novo Eboraco.’
Philo, your format looks fine, although methinks that the province name could be omitted. BTW, hope you are well, and recovering nicely. The abbreviation ‘coss.’ may also be used for the consular year, but ‘cos.’ is also fine.
Latin names for cities are not easy to find, but some European ones are listed in the Collins’ Gem Latin dictionary. More are at the back of the larger version of Smith’s English-Latin lexicon, but the smaller version (which I normally use) lacks this feature. The online Owens neo-Latin dictionary has a good many more of these, but is difficult to search.
Valete!May 22, 2017 at 10:12 pm #10402
Thank you, I will send to my father your good wishes. He is the one sick. And I thank the immortal gods he is getting better ^^
Regarding city names, it might be interesting to see the Collegium Latinum actually creating official latin names for the cities of magistrates living in non-european cities. We could request it of the CL and you guys maintain a list of cities from the ones asked. Does this project interest you?
For example, I live in Praia Grande. What would be the best latin name for this city? Litus Magnus? Acta Magna? Both Litus and Acta seem to mean "beach", which is best to choose?May 22, 2017 at 11:37 pm #10403
I found a rather "modern" example for writing a date in Latin.
This is a Latin M.A. diploma of the University of Oxford from the last century.
The date is given the following way (lower left corner):quote :
Regarding city names, most cities have actual Latin names originating from the Middle Ages. Even if Praia Grande is in the New World and therefore founded much later, Latin was very much in use until at least the 18th/19th century. It was still the official language in the HRE until the very end of the 18th century, not German as many assume. Therefore virtually all European cities have Latin names. There is no need to invent or Latinize city names.
If Praia Grande has a university or an old school, they may still use the Latin name of the city in their documents. Another source would be old church documents like baptism certificates of your parents or grandparents.
I looked up the history of the city. It was founded as Sanctus Vincentius in the 16th century. So if you do not find a more current name, "Sanctus Vincentius" might be the best choice.
Valete!May 23, 2017 at 12:38 am #10406
Actually Praia Grande was a district of São Vincente for a great part of its history. Only in recent years has it become a city, seperated from São Vincente. It is a very new neighborhood. I doubt we’ll find any old university here. Sanctus Vincentius would be a good name for our neighbor though lol Here it is still very new and Brazil hasn’t been using latin for a LONG time. So I doubt you’ll find latin names for many of the younger cities.
And Horatia amica, I think it was me that got the "Novi Eboraci" wrong. I think I autocorrected it in my mind but wrongly because I thought for some reason that it had to be in the Ablative lolMay 23, 2017 at 2:31 am #10407
L. Horatia Adamas C. Curtio Philoni C. Florio Lupo omnibusque S.P.D.
It’s sometimes difficult to figure out who said what unless one uses different colors or whatever. I thought I had attributed the locative error to the correct party, but I guess I didn’t, although the quote seemed to be from Laevus. Obviously I got the wrong surgical patient, though admittedly I had wondered how you could be so energetic after that sort of thing. 😉 However, you are young…Best wishes to your father for a speedy recovery.
Indeed as Lupus noted, many city names already exist* and there is no need for Latinization. One simply has to find the correct Latin version. Several have the word corresponding to ‘grande’ in them, so there should be no problem there. ‘Beach,’ however, is not the sort of name one expects among the Romans (they don’t seem to have been as fond of them as many moderns are), and several European countries seem to lack ocean beaches. 😉 ‘Acta’ is derived from the Greek akté, which poses no problems in Greek, but in Latin might be confused with ‘acta [publica],’ public records. ‘Litus’ seems to be the more generic word, and my Smith’s Smaller says that ‘acta’ is rare in Latin (although the OLD cites a couple of examples from Cicero), so ‘litus’ might well be the better vocabulary choice.
* In my own state, we have cities / towns / villages named Greece, Rome, Troy, Ilion, Cicero, Syracuse, Utica, Homer, Cincinnatus, Hector, Cato, Tully, Apulia Station, Marathon, etc.…most are villages, but Syracuse is a good sized city, and Utica is not tiny. A college friend came from Rome, N.Y. Some other geographic names here are derived from those in Europe, including those from the Roman period. Unless one is dealing with the sort of invented names popular in certain quarters these days, one should be able to find a Latin equivalent for the names of many cities, towns, and villages. There is Londinium, Lutetia [Parisiorum], Neapolis…for further assistance, one may consult the Lexicon Nominum Locorum by Carolus [Karl, ni fallor] Egger, one of the top Latinists among us, or the Owens lexicon at Wyoming Catholic College: Faculty Pages » Patrick Owens » Lexicon » Adumbratio
Regarding dating of the calendar sort, not even modern Latinists tend to use the Roman-style dating, so yes, they give the number of the day and the Latin name of the month along with the modern year. BTW, did you note that the diploma in question was honorary? ‘Honoris causá?’
Valete!May 23, 2017 at 3:16 am #10408
That raises an interesting question amica. If I am in a city that has the same name as an European one, how would I differentiate them in writing? Like, if I were to date something in Rome, NY how would I write that?May 23, 2017 at 4:41 am #10409
L. Horatia Adamas C. Curtio Philoni sodalibusque S.P.D.
I forgot to mention Ithaca, the home of Cornell University…most of the areas with Greco-Roman names in NYS are in the central part of the state.
Well, there are several ancient cities with the same name, so an adjective or defining genitive was sometimes added to differentiate them. Lots of towns were named after Caesar and / or Augustus, so they were distinguished by a relevant adjective or defining genitive. Caesar Augusta was the name of what we now refer to as Zaragoza (spelling…). Augusta Taurinorum is now Turin. However, that addition may not be necessary; all over the U.S. we have multiple Londons, multiple Lexingtons (at least one in Massachusetts, where the Revolutionary War began, another in Kentucky, where the chief U.S. Latinist resides), multiple Manchesters, Warsaws, etc. etc., and many other names copied over and over again. Most of the time it is not necessary to distinguish these, but when it is, we can specify by using the name of the state or whatever. Flipping through the toponyms in Collins’ Gem, I see a town called ‘Lund,’ whose name in Latin is Londinium Gothorum, distinguishing it from London in England (Latin, Londinium); Augsburg is Augusta Vindelicorum, but both Bologna in Italy and Boulogne in France are ‘Bononia’ in Latin, and insofar as its name is concerned, Thebes in Egypt is no different from Thebes in Greece.
Vale, et valete!May 23, 2017 at 10:45 am #10411
So maybe a solution would be to either put the genitive or an adjactive of a person’s province maybe? So maybe Egypt, TX could be rendered (just for the sake of an example I can think of, though I think anyone would UNDERSTAND the person is not talking about actual Egypt) Ægyptus Texiensis?
And what about places that are names of people or surnames of people? Would Wallis, TX be Vallis simply? Would Brainerd, MN be simply Brainertium?May 23, 2017 at 8:50 pm #10413
L. Horatia Adamas L. Curtio Philoni fautoribus linguae Latinae omnibus S.P.D.
The Americas do not have any shortage of places with surnames of their founders; buildings with ‘Trump’ on them are not in short supply, but as far as I am aware, he has yet to found a city (give it time…). We also have many places whose names are derived from Native American ones. Dealing with the Latinization of these is something of a hot topic, but my praeceptor recommended leaving these alone and treating them as indeclinable unless the personal name ones can be easily Latinized. That and many other elements of nomenclature and Latinization are dealt with in the Sermo Latinus courses, which so far as I am aware are still taught at the Schola Latina Universalis, although several other courses they used to offer are no longer available there; I expect to teach one of those in the Fall in a different venue. Those who already are quite competent in Latin (Seneca, Lupus, et al.) really should look into taking these spoken-Latin courses, or at the very least obtaining the text. The French / Latin version, Le Latin sans Peine, by Clément Desessard, reportedly is available online, as are the sound files which accompany it. Otherwise it and the Italian / Latin and German / Latin versions can be purchased from the publisher, Assimil, or from Amazon, and there is a new French / Latin version simply called ‘Le Latin,’ but one must beware of another text by the same name and publisher with a different author, one who is utterly incompetent. None of the above is cheap…the recent French one (with CDs and MP3) was about $125). However, they are very, very good.
For differentiation, yes, adding an adjective or defining genitive should work.
Vale, et valete!May 23, 2017 at 9:17 pm #10414
Salve Augustissima Grammatica amica,
How does one deal with non-declinable nouns? How does one tell what position they take grammatically in a phrase without declension?
PhiloMay 23, 2017 at 10:00 pm #10415
L. Horatia Adamas C. Curtio Philoni laudatori omnibusque fautoribus linguae Latinae S.P.D.
There are existing nouns in Latin which are indeclinable, such as ‘necesse,’ and fourth declension neuters, all four of them (cornu, genu, pecu, veru) have the same ending in four of the five normal cases of the singular; only the genitive differs. The Romans seem to have managed, although generally the tail wags the dog in Latin, and indicates a word’s function in a sentence.
Vale, amice, et valete! Cenatum eo.May 23, 2017 at 10:31 pm #10417
Anonymousquote Lucia Horatia Adamas:
So for example, if I were to refer to Pequot Lakes for example I’d call it Laci Pequot aye? And the Pequot would be understood as being this or that declension by context.May 24, 2017 at 1:17 am #10419
L. Horatia Adamas C. Curtio Philoni amico laudatorio omnibusque S.P.D.
Essentially, yes, but ‘Lacus’ is in the fourth declension, and has an anomalous dative and ablative plural: lacubus. Thus the nominative (and accusative) plural is ‘lacús,’ with a long u, and the genitive singular is also ‘lacús.’ ‘Of Lake Pequot’ therefore is ‘Lacús Pequot,’ ‘to / for Lake Pequot’ is ‘Lacui Pequot,’ etc. ‘Lakes Pequot’ would be ‘Lacús Pequot.’ Are they plural? In any case, there is no form ‘laci’ for this word…the closest is the dative singular, ‘lacui.’
Yes, the context should help with the identification, but (trust me) it is not perfect, especially not in Latin poetry, where words meant to be taken together can be several lines apart.
Cura(te) ut valea(ti)s!May 24, 2017 at 2:40 am #10420
I see! So Lacus follows a similar pattern to Magistratus and Senatus. The name of the place is Pequot Lakes in the plural. So if I lived there and were to date something for today it would then be:
Datum Lacuum Pequot a.d. X Kal. Iun. L. Curtio L. Aurelio cos.
And is there any way for me to write the week day in this dating format in an abreviated fashion? I have, ad hoc, been using celestial symbols for the days of the week just as a shorthand for personal use. So ♀ for Friday, ☿ for Wednesday, ♄ for Saturday etc, using the astronomical symbols of the planets associated with the week days. Although this shorthand has been useful for my uses, I am curious to know if there is a more TRADITIONAL form of rendering the days of the week in a date. Would you know of any?
PhiloMay 24, 2017 at 5:11 am #10422
L. Horatia Adamas C. Curtio Philoni omnibusque S.P.D.
Yes, ‘lacus’ is in the small fourth declension, along with a number of words used in Roman government, including ‘senatus’ and ‘magistratus,’ along with ‘census’ and several others.
Methinks ‘Lacubus Pequot’ would be better, though neither of my grammars gives a locative for any fourth declension word other than ‘domus.’
Hmmm…how did you get those astronomical symbols into this forum system? It happens that there are nice Latin names for the days of the week (understand ‘dies’ with the following): Lunae, Martis, Mercuri, Jovis, Veneris, Saturni, Solis (or Dominica). Except for the adjective ‘Dominica,’ these are genitives, so ‘on Monday’ is ‘Lunae die.’ I don’t find any example of combining the day of the week and the numerical date, but ‘in May’ would be ‘mense Majo.’ The construction would be the same with the other months. Lessons 32 and 33 in the text I recommended earlier, now called ‘Le Latin,’ but still by Clément Desessard (not the other author of a text with the same title, I. Ducos-Filippi), provide this and additional information on this topic. I encourage all those who are interested in learning the Latin for modern concepts to consider the Sermo Latinus courses, which are free except for the cost of the text and quality time spent learning.
Someday I might get to answer some posts in the Collegium Philosophicum…and finish writing a final exam.
Valeas, valeatis!May 24, 2017 at 1:37 pm #10423
I googled the symbols, copied them and then pasted them here. And I was looking it up and found this:
Seems like a good solution. So since the first Sunday of the year started on January 1st this is an A year. Thus all AA are Sundays. With that in mind, today would then be:
Datum Litoris Magni a.d. IX Kal. Iun. L. Curtio L. Aurelio cos. D (D meaning Wednesday)May 24, 2017 at 7:15 pm #10425
L. Horatia Adamas C. Curtio Philoni omnibusque S.P.D.
It’s not necessary to add the nundinal letter (A for this year, which is deemed inauspicious). So far as I am aware, these are noted on calendars, but not when someone writes a document / letter. Letters are not otherwise assigned to the days of the week; the Romans did not have names for the days of the week; they just counted them from the three fixed dates of every month.
Litore…the locative of third declension nouns is the same as the ablative. However, when modified by an adjective, such as ‘magnus,’ the locative is not used. There does not seem to be any separate locative for adjectives, and only a few groups of nouns have them. Here the simple ablative, or ablative with ‘in,’ seems to be the correct choice. Nouns in apposition with locatives are put into the ablative…
Vale, et valete!May 24, 2017 at 7:51 pm #10427
I have been counting the days of the week only in my personal diary, just because I like it. I do not intend to use Nundinae, but the late antiquity version of our 7 days of the week placed in the same fashion as the Nundinae (A, B, C… G instead of A, B, C… H) and only in my own private diary.
Regarding the Locative, this case has proven to be very confusing to me. Could you explain this better? For a Locative, do we use the Genitive case or the Ablative case? And how do I know which to use and when?
So my dating would be "Datum Litore Magno"?May 24, 2017 at 9:22 pm #10429
L. Horatia Adamas C. Curtio Philoni omnibusque S.P.D.
The locative is used with the names of towns, cities, villages, and small islands to indicate place where. A few additional nouns also have this form: domi, at home, ruri, in the countryside, militiae, at war / on the battlefield / in military service (belli is also used for this), humi, on the ground, animi, in the mind, foris, outdoors. The locative for singular words in the first declension is the same as the genitive. The same is true for singular words in the second declension. In the third declension, the locative has the same form as the ablative, and only ‘domus’ seems to have a locative in the fourth declension. In the fifth declension, only a few words have a locative, and all singulars end in -e. In the plural, the locative is the same as the dative / ablative, so ‘Syracusis,’ ‘at Syracuse.’
Generally, place whence is rendered by the ablative, and place whither by the accusative in those words which use a locative for place where. The Allen and Greenough Latin grammar discusses the locative and other relationships of place at various points (including §§426-427), as does the Gildersleeve and Gonzalez Lodge one, which is more complete, but also more difficult to use.
As best as I can discover, ‘datum Litore Magno’ would be correct. There aren’t a lot of examples of such names in classical Latin, to put it mildly.
Vale, et valete!May 25, 2017 at 2:31 am #10433
Here is a link to a web site where you can always find the correct declensions and conjugations of any Latin word:
This is for lacus as an example.
It has helped me a lot. You should try it.
It is not true that the 7-day-week was totally unknown to Romans.
At least in imperial times it became more and more common.
Below is an example of such a calendar.
However the concept was not original Roman. The 7-day-week was used at the beginning mostly for astrological purposes, and astrology was imported from Babylon. Romans preferred watching birds (augures) and the intestines of sacrificial animals (haruspices) instead to predict the future.
Nevertheless the Babylonian system of naming the days became well established in imperial Rome. It has not been introduced by the Christians or Jews as many falsely assume, but was taken from the Greeks who had it from the Babylonians. Hebrew names are quite different. The Jews had the system however from the same Babylonian source (Babylonian captivity).
Seven planets were recognized in antiquity. Sun, Moon, Venus, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn
The Chaldean Order of planets sorts them from the outermost planetary sphere to the innermost one (or from the slowest moving planet to the fastest moving one) as following:
The first hour of the day is supposed to be ruled by a certain planet. During the following day however the first hour is ruled by the planet, which is three steps down in this list. Hence the day of the Moon (7) is followed by the day of Mars (3), which is followed by the day of Mercury (6) and then Jupiter (2) and so on.
In Latin we have the following weekdays, which remains in most Romance languages:
Latin – French – Spanish
Lunae Dies – lundi – lunes
Martis Dies – mardi – martes
Mercurii Dies – mercredi – miércoles
Iovis Dies – jeudi – jueves
Veneris Dies – vendredi – viernes
Saturni Dies – samedi – sábado
Solis Dies – dimanche – domingo
Saturday and Sunday however have a different origin, but we can still see the Latin name in English:
Saturn Day – Saturday
Sun Day – Sunday
Most other days of the week in English are named after the Nordic equivalent of the corresponding Roman god.
Tuesday – Tyr’s day – Mars
Wednesday – Wodan’s day – Mercurius
Thursday – Thor’s day – Iuppiter
Friday – Freya’s day – Venus
I think it is totally legitimate and historically authentic to use the planetary weekdays for a Roman date. The Latin news website http://ephemeris.alcuinus.net/ is doing this for example. Today is Jovis die 25 mensis Maii 2017 according to them. However it would be better to replace decimal numbers with Roman numerals: Iovis die XXV mensis Maii MMXVII
Astrological symbols also make sense, since astrology was the origin of these names.
Valete!May 25, 2017 at 4:51 am #10435
L. Horatia Adamas C. Florio Lupo C. Curtio Philoni omnibusque S.P.D.
Lupe, your link to the paradigm site did not work for me; is something missing? Fortunately I have a fairly good handle on declensions and conjugations by now, but there are anomalies one finds in one’s reading…
No, the seven-day week was not unknown to the Romans, but they don’t seem to have used it much, or at all in the classical period. Nundinae seem to have been more common. What is the date of this calendar? You mentioned it was imperial…
BTW, erratum dactylographicum: die Veneris, not Verenis…
The Alcuinus site is part of the all-Latin mailing list, the Grex Latiné Loquentium. There one should be able to find the news in Latin (very evident on this page), with abundant modern vocabulary. It makes good practice, and those who have some facility in Latin should try to read it. For the dates they are using a format somewhat different from the one we learnt, but it seems accurate. Modern Latinists often do not use the Roman numerals.
On the right hand side of that page there is a link to the schola, and despite the drop off in the quality of teaching after the expulsion of the two best teachers and of two fine interpreters, those who already have a good command of Latin should consider taking the Sermo course. The teacher for the advanced course is nice and is less indisposed to work than the other teacher. Your fluency will increase markedly after this course–but you must have the text and CDs to register, and they are not cheap.
Valete!May 25, 2017 at 11:25 am #10437
Gratias tibi, Horatia Adamas.
I have corrected the typo in my post.
The link works for me. But it is quite long and a linebreak might destroy it. Try the homepage http://www.nihilscio.it
The stick calendar was found in the thermae of Titus. So it was probably from the 1st or 2nd century.
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