June 1, 2020 at 2:42 pm #38123
Salvete citizens of our grand Republic, I am here today to ask you, as an Augur and Sacerdotes, what you the citizens of the Republic would like to see from the Religio and any ideas you might have to help us bring it back to the forefront of the Republic. I have been an Augur and Sacerdotes for 3 years now and have sadly done little beyond study my positions. Now is the perfect time for citizens of the Republic who are interested in the Religio to come forward and speak their mind on how they wish to see the Religio progress and possibly earn a position within our great priesthood. I have no authority to promise or guarantee anything but those who show dedication here and now will most certainly reap the benefits of a more organized and functional Religio. We need now, more than ever, citizens willing to step up with ideas, dedication, giving their time, anything they have to successfully bring the Religio back. I make this post in the main forum so more of you see it, as this is beyond just a Religio issue. Without an effective Religio every aspect of Rome is hurt. I only ask for a few of you dedicated few to show your dedication now and stand up. I look forward to conversing with any who show interest and hope to soon show progression towards the goal of a revived Religio. Valete!June 2, 2020 at 6:36 am #38124
Spurius Gallonius CatulusDenarii: 𐆖 119.00PlebeiusCalifornia Citerior
I think we need priests that perform the ceremonies of the sacra publica. All such events should be recorded and published for the citizens to see. Ideally they would be broadcast live for the citizens could participate.
I also think we need to teach people about the Religio. Maybe the courses being discussed are a start?June 2, 2020 at 12:56 pm #38127
Thank you for the response! I would very much love to get with some of the other Sacerdotes and start working on getting some ceremonies started regularly, but for this to be effective we very much are in need of more dedicated individuals who are willing to become Sacerdotes. Along the lines of courses, a lot of resources on the website are very well written but I wish us to eventually move towards more live teaching. I’d be willing to do this myself if there are people interested in learning more. My passion and knowledge is on a free tap for anyone to access, all they need to do is ask. Once elections are over and we have a better understanding of our new magistrates and their goals we’ll be able to better define what we want to happen with the Religio.June 3, 2020 at 12:07 am #38130
Lucia Hostilia ScauraDenarii: 𐆖 885.85PatriciusPacifica
I think the first step towards building the Sacra Publica is training, followed by reselecting our sacerdotes. I hope the RR can look into this over the remainder of the year after elections are done. Maybe something for the new magistrates who are cultures to explore?June 3, 2020 at 12:27 am #38132
Very much agreed. We have an amazing training program created by our own Brutus and it serves us very well. I think all our current Augurs and Sacerdotes should completely redo or at the very least go over all of the training again. It’s been a long time since any type of religious ceremony, prayer, etc, has been undertaken by anyone other than Brutus or Lucius and even then very minimal. Reselecting might not be the best term, maybe reviewing our current Sacerdotes. See how many of us are still active and committed, remove those that aren’t and those that are begin their training fresh. Hopefully once the new magistrates are selected we can go over all of the trainings and revamp and modernize them. I was thinking about doing video training for the more complex actions and things that are harder to type but would definitely need to revamp what we have first.June 6, 2020 at 7:50 pm #38204
I specifically warn that I do not want to offend anyone or hurt anyone’s feelings. I just want to draw the attention of those present to a number of objective points and to warn against possible errors.
The question of the restoration of the Religio Romana is, first of all, the question of the restoration of the Sacra Publica, since without the Sacra Publica it is impossible to achieve Pax Deorum. I do not detract from the need for Sacra Privata, but we all understand that it is the business of each individual head of the family (or even person), how he fulfills his religious duties, while society (civitas) as a whole should care about how the relationship between him and the Gods is realized.
We all did not come into the world with a wealth of knowledge, in particular in the field of Religio Romana. Therefore, I understand that the level of knowledge and experience in this area is different for everyone. Fortunately, the lack of knowledge can be filled, for example, my friends and I did this without the Academia Minervalis. The Academy is a great help, but learning and comprehending experience and knowledge is possible without it, the main is desire. Moreover, in English there is much more very useful and valuable literature than in my language. Why am I talking about this?
I am sometimes surprised at how some template errors appear and spread. I can assume that erroneous judgments are the result of some extrapolation of Christian values and ideas to Roman revivalism. Most often this is expressed in the fact that many mistakenly believe that for the revival of the Sacred Public (and the Religio Romana in general) sacerdotes, augurs and pontiffs are first of all necessary (in the Religio Romana, these people perform a role different from that of modern Christian priests). This is a common misconception I find everywhere, in various projects and organizations.
Simply put, sacerdotes, augurs and pontiffs are generally not the most important thing in Religio Romana. The central figure of the Sacra Privata (home cult) is the head of the family. The central figure of Sacra Publica is the magistrate with the imperium (and Senate). The Roman Republic initially began to use the Sacra Publica model that Nova Roma used, and this is wrong, we should have used a different approach from the beginning and be guided by completely different principles, but we are desperate to continue to multiply our mistakes. Which mistakes? I would name two main of them:
1) We speak of the Religio Romana as something independent, but we forget that the Religio Romana is an integral part of the Roman state and society. It is absolutely impossible to revive the Religio Romana, in isolation from the state and society. You can have as many trained sacerdotes, augurs and pontiffs as you like, but if you do not fully recreate all the institutions of the Roman society and state, you still will not revive the Religio Romana. It’s the same as trying to plant a seed in a concrete slab and then resent it because it doesn’t want to grow. I don’t want to dispel anyone’s dreams and hopes, but unfortunately, in order to even begin to really restore the Religio Romana and move towards Pax Deorum, we must first of all not solve the problems regarding sacerdotes, augurs and pontiffs (this can be done in the background mode), but do this:
1. Somehow to stimulate the implementation of Sacra Privata, and this is also an extremely difficult task, given a number of theoretical points and problems. For the Romans, Religion is piety, and piety begins with oneself, that is, with a private cult.
2. To establish the normal and regular work of the Senate and the Magistrates – it is they, and not the sacerdotes, augurs and pontiffs, who are the main implementers of Sacra Publica.
2) Religio Romana is a religion of ritual. Strict performance of the ritual is absolutely necessary. We cannot restore the ritual, because we simply either don’t have enough people, or we don’t have the necessary magistrate, or we don’t have the necessary organs (bodies) of the state or society. It is easier for a lawyer to deal with Roman Religion, because it is in some way a section of Roman public law. In fact, now almost everything in the Republic is being done wrong. I honestly can’t even remember that at least one ritual was performed correctly. This is not a claim, just a statement of fact. This is because before we do anything, we are not talking about it. Before starting to do something, it is important to solve various theoretical problems that will inevitably arise. Many do not understand that a violation of the ritual leads to the nullity of the entire sacred action or can lead to negative consequences. The specialists of our Republic must solve the theoretical and practical problems of restoring the ritual. Let me give you an example: in the Rebuplic before public events, auspices are held, augurs conduct them, but this is wrong, in the Ancient Roman practice of auspices the presiding magistrate holds, only this way. Public auspices are not carried out by augurs at all, they are carried out by magistrates with the imperium. In our case, a significant number of auspices in the Roman Republic were carried out by an improper person, which means that they are legally void, that is, incorrect. There is still a big question, perhaps erroneous auspices have estranged us from Pax Deorum. And here is another example: the current comitia are convened by the Princeps of the Senate, that is, a magistrate without an imperium, this is a violation of the ritual, Princeps cannot carry out nunciatio, and before that he could not conduct public auspices, since he does not have an imperium. What is happening to the Romans in ancient times would be simply unacceptable, and the thing point is not that we make certain conventions, no, the problem is that we make mistakes where they could not be made. My words may look silly, but I speak from the point of view of the Religio Romana, which does not allow errors or inaccuracies. The story comes to my mind that when interrex first appointed a dictator in ancient Rome, auspices were carried out in order to find out the divine will. But we didn’t even do this, because in our understanding several mortal people decided that it would be more convenient to entrust this to Princeps, and at that moment the sacred issues did not bother anyone. And I wrote about it. Now I generally have doubts about the existence of an imperium among newly elected magistrates. Sometimes we do not at all try to think and act like the Romans, although we can and should do it.
I just want to convey to all those present here the idea that the methods proposed by you will not solve the problem that is being discussed here. The training of sacerdotes, augurs and typhics is good, it’s right, but it’s not the main thing, and this can be carried out within the framework of the Brutus project or even independently. The point is completely different. We must gather experts and start by solving theoretical problems and questions. For example, it is necessary to solve the question of pomerium, that is, the sacred border, how to revive it now, in modern conditions, because sacred borders and public auspices are interconnected; solve the problem with the imperium and so on. This is a titanic layer of work. But without all this, all our activities will more resemble cosplay than the real restoration of the Religio Romana (of course, some will continue to cosplay the Religio Romana, believing that they revive the Religio Romana, but this is not so, which is clear to any person who has a sufficient level of knowledge). The Roman ritual of the deep is indifferent to all our modern problems, and therefore we must make every possible effort and develop theoretical approaches to its full restoration, otherwise we simply will not be able to restore the Religio Romana and Pax Deorum.
I follow Romanitas, so I will not use general phrases or sentences without specifics. I will speak specifically. Specialists must be gathered, and work must be begun. Everything must be done according to tradition and historical authenticity. The Senate should apply to the Collegium Pontificum, and this collegium should start work on resolving all priority issues of a sacred nature. Then, after implementation, these answers will take effect. Including this should happen through the introduction of the relevant paragraphs in the “Flavian Code”. The Collegium Pontificum should consist of the most prominent and knowledgeable citizens of the Roman Republic, by analogy with Rome, in the beginning there may be five of them, although in our Republic of the current citizens, I know only two the eligible people – Brutus and myself, and relatively well versed in this matter Crassus and Celsus, I believe Brutus will also mention Varro. At least it was Celsus and Crassus who together with me decided the question of creating, preparing and constructing a temple in accordance with all the rules of Sacra Publica.
This is a good job and a concrete plan for the magistrates who are being elected. A solution to theoretical and practical problems must be found, otherwise we will just continue to do everything wrong. In any case, it is already visible who is teaching and who is being taught. If we want to do everything right, then the procedure must be followed, the Senate should appeal to the Collegium Pontificum, and only after that the collegium should get to work.
This is the right job for the magistrate. I waited a long time for one of the magistrates to offer something similar, but unfortunately, I did not see anything specific from any of the magistrates. I want to hope that someone will take this plan of mine to use, for its implementation magistrate’s powers are really needed. The very procedure for creating the Collegium Pontificum is also an issue that should be resolved, and this is a separate work for the magistrate or magistrates who will take up the job, I have thoughts on this, I’m sure that our other specialists will always provide support.June 6, 2020 at 8:57 pm #38205
You make good points Titus! I apologize straight off as some of this was difficult to understand due to translation issues which is a shame but I am trying to put it together as best I can.
I indeed did not intend to say that the only way to gain such knowledge is through the Academia, but I feel it would be helpful if it were a central database of our collective knowledge on all parts of Roman society. This makes it easier for people to access and find whatever information they are looking for, especially if it pertains to the Republic. It doesn’t necessarily have to be the Academia, I just felt this would be the easiest method available. We could easily use the forums to best catalog and store such knowledge. Whatever we as a community view as the most useful is what I will focus on.
Indeed magistrates with Imperium are the most important factor needed but the implementation of Imperium itself is a subject that needs to be discussed in great detail and worked correctly to fit and work in a modern environment. We don’t have a Roman state to confer Imperium, just a corporation and hopefully dedicated citizens.
You want to stimulate Sacra Privata and this is good. My idea for this was first and foremost, knowledge. We have vastly underused the education/culture section of the forums and we as a community can help expand this. If not with the Academia, through this tab. I want knowledge to be easily accessible and available to everyone who wishes to learn, especially as a tool for new magistrates and CDR officials. As far as I’m aware, possibly due to my own ignorance of not being a magistrate prior, I am unaware of any current guide for new magistrates taking office who have not held before. Please correct and link me if I am incorrect.
You state that we have been doing everything incorrectly, and we have been for such time. It is a reality we need to think about that perfect implementation of the ancient system is not possible in modern times, due to many many factors. You look at Christianity today and it is not the same religion it was 1000-1500 years ago, it has evolved and changed with modern times and perhaps we need not change so much but we need to look realistically at what might need to change to make it work now. The ancient system relied heavily on state magistrates, of which we can now technically only have corporate magistrates. Even in their times, the Romans changed to new circumstances, including new deities within their pantheon, changing their triads and more. I don’t believe the gods would necessarily be offended by any necessary changes as long as we tried to implement what we can first. But that is also the issue. It is difficult for us to understand the will of the gods without Imperium yet it is hard to implement Imperium. It is a paradox we need to come together to solve.
You have taught me a lot in these short days and any sources, materials, etc you can give me to study so I can come better armed with knowledge would be appreciated. I am still young, only having been doing this since before I was 18. I am now only 21 yet I feel I am better motivated and capable then many who have been in the Roman revitalization community for decades. My youth does not affect my ability, but it does affect my wisdom, knowledge, and ignorance on many subjects. Any ignorance you can help me dispel helps me become a better magistrate and leader for this community. Thank you for what you do Titus, our talks give me much hope.
Vale!June 7, 2020 at 1:10 am #38207
I pulled this quote from the Declaration of Principles of the CDR. http://romanrepublic.org/roma/bibliotheca/cdr-declaration/
“We understand that the traditions and practices of the Cultus Deorum Romanorum evolved throughout antiquity and will continue to develop throughout history.”
I am curious, if we accept and acknowledge that the CDR has evolved and will continue to evolve, why must we force ourselves to stick to ancient tradition that is extremely difficult to implement in a modern society without a sovereign state behind us. I understand the need for tradition, I certainly don’t wish for us to abandon anything. Just do as it has stated. Evolve. A true modern CDR, modern values, practices, etc all rooted in the tradition of old.
This is meant to start genuine discussion about what can be done to make a modern Religio Romana so we can achieve Pax Deorum. If the Romans of ancient could evolve and avoid ira deorum then I believe we as modern followers can as well, out of necessity. Please give me your opinion on this, as we have many options here.June 7, 2020 at 5:31 am #38208
Procula Valeria MessallaDenarii: 𐆖 163.20PlebeiusEria
I think having a community is a big part of developing the sacra privata. Not all of us live in households where everyone is a cultor. Nearly none of us where taught by our parents about the Gods.
Most of us are like children without guides. We are alone in our homes, learning what we can. Some of what we learn is also clearly wrong. In hindsight I have noticed much of what I believed was right five years ago is mostly supersitio. I tried my best to learn, but so much of the conversation on the internet is grounded in neopagan stuff. 😔June 7, 2020 at 11:45 am #38212
Appius Iunius SenecaDenarii: 𐆖 27.05PlebeiusAsia Minor
Very interesting topic and very interesting discussion. I consider myself a Traditionalist and I am not supportive towards any kind of “New Age” Cultus Deorum. Sacra Privata is a personal thing but it should be also based on some historical things (beside the “latin name” of it). I support ideas of Senator Titus Flavius Severus. It is easy to build something very fast and in modern way – but will the Gods accept it? In my humble opinion it is better to build things slowly but in correct way (according to the sources and traditions).
Appius Iunius SenecaJune 7, 2020 at 12:33 pm #38213
I did not mean to say we need to make something new, this is in fact the opposite of what I stated. I stated it might not be possible to recreate the ancient tradition as many things rely on factors we cant replicate in a modern era. You say you are a Traditionalist and don’t support “New Age” CDR but which traditions do you support? The traditions of the Roman Kingdom? Roman Republic? Roman Empire? They are all different and have slightly updated practices and rites that grew with time and I believe it is time to do so here. I do not call for the abandonment of tradition at all. I want us to root the CDR deeply in tradition but evolve the religio as if we truly were Romans of this age.
If the Roman Empire/Republic still existed now under the CDR and never switched the Christianity, would it be the same after the introduction of new facts from science? Probably not. While tradition is very important it is also important to not lose yourself in it and to accept that even as the ancient Romans evolved the CDR, so must we.
Vale!June 7, 2020 at 9:45 pm #38215
Very good point have been made here. I would like to thank Severus for his explanations.
Nevertheless the Religio Romana can only succeed, if we accept reality. This whole magistrate and imperium thing is just roleplaying. Our elected magistrates have no real imperium, i.e. power over life and death. Only the governments of the nation states we life in have this power, and they are not going to participate in our rituals. So we have to make some adjustments.
The Religio Romana can only survive, if it is able to stand on its own feet. The religious office shave tobe able to work independently,becausethis is how the modern world works. Most nations that have grown out of the provinces of the Roman Empire are more or less secular; they have a separation of Church and State. If our religion seeks acceptance, we have to accept this reality. We don’t need t pretend that there is a Roman Republic with actual political power. There simply is not. This is afact. It’s a corporation at best.
We need to establish an organizational structure for the Religio that is independent from worldly powers, because we simply do not have this power. The Religio needs to fit into the real world, if it wants to have some existence there. We want to be respected among the other religions in the world. This will not work, if we depend on a virtual state that only exists in an imagined virtual reality.
What did the real followers of the Religio Romana do, when Christianity became state religion? Did they keep demanding that the Christian magistrates performed their rituals? Or did they not adapt to the new situation and become independent from the state and its religion?
Let’s do the same. Let’s set up an organizational structure independent from any state that can work in the real world and find some acceptance there.
We can’t do this alone. We have to do it together with other cultores outside of this Republic. This has to include Nova Roma, the Comunitas Populi Romana and the Assoziacione Tradizionale Pietas (because they have an actual temple in Rome).
C. Florius LupusJune 7, 2020 at 11:22 pm #38216
Good points you make, most I agree with! The matter of imperium within a modern society is a tough topic. In the classic, full sense it cannot be replicated. We are not a nation, we cannot confer military and political power onto anyone. However the idea of imperium can still be used in the sense of corporate power to host and preform events needed. Without a real nation backing us this is ever as close we’ll get to real imperium.
Indeed we do need to make ourselves independent, but this is where you lose me. You say we cannot do it alone, yet we have tried in the past to bring us together. You, myself, Lucius and possibly another set out to do this in 2018 and we were met with failure. How do you wish to go about it this time to avoid such failure? If we indeed wish to bring us all together then we need to have something we can show that works to these other communities. Why would they join with us in the endeavor when we have failed before and currently offer nothing new except ideas, which is exactly what we had last time.
If this is indeed a way we wish to go, we have much work to do before we can even thing on bringing in outsiders to help if we do not wish to repeat the same mistakes as old. Look through these emails with me Lupus, pull out any quotes that stand out to you and please post them here and I will do the same. A past attempt to do what we wish to do now is a good start, even if it was a failure, failure is a guide to success.
Vale!June 8, 2020 at 8:42 am #38220
Aula Flavia PhilippaDenarii: 𐆖 123.90PlebeiusSarmatia
Sacra Privata is everyone’s private business. I agree with Flavius Severus that this direction needs to be stimulated, without Sacra Privata it is impossible to realize Romanitas. Regarding Sacra Privata, there are no sources, however, there is a positive point, because this means that the Sacra Privata is poorly regulated. That is a certain scope.
At the last meeting in Sarmatia, we talked about the Sacra Privata and the revival of its individual elements. In particular, we came to the conclusion that it would be logical to revive the cults of those families whose names we carry, and if the necessary sources for this are not available, then apply the method of legal analogy (Flavius Severus and Vergilius Crassus consider this issue in legal terms, as part of the public rights). This is in principle correct, given that new citizens appeared in Rome, for example freedmen, and they could start their own home cult. We are not at a standstill, there are solution options, they just need to be found, understood and comprehended, and then applied.June 20, 2020 at 4:25 pm #38293
Thank you Lupus for your participation and your clarification.
These questions, in particular regarding the imperium, have already been raised at this forum more than once. The fact is that they do not lead to anything. Everyone remains unconvinced. Nevertheless, this points to an important problem in the whole movement of Roman revivalism, think about it: Never in history has any community or a significant group of people gathered in order to substantively and scientifically discuss and find ways to solve problems for the real, not apparent (imaginary), the revival of the Roman Religion. It is for this that communities are needed, because such problems can only be solved collectively, together, because Roman Religion is the foundation of Civitas, and they are inextricably linked with each other. But in our case, the various organizations of Roman revivalism are like blind kittens, who understand the need for something – the revival of the Roman Religion, but in reality do not take really meaningful systemic actions that would give tangible results.
The foundation of Rome, the Republic, the Roman Religion – need a community. We already have this community, our views may differ regarding the size of this community, but the fact that there is a community around the Roman Republic with active personalities is a fact. The next thing we must do is create Civitas.
Unfortunately, over the past years, the Roman Republic failed to create Civitas, but we should not be upset, because not a single Roman-oriented organization has created a real Civitas from the community. Civitas is a kind of community organization. Roman Civitas is impossible without the social institutions and bodies inherent specifically to Roman Civitas. Without Roman Civitas, Roman Religion is impossible, because it is the ROMAN Religion, it is the religion of a particular social community – Roman Civitas. Without Roman Civitas, the realization of Romanitas is impossible. Civitas – Roman Religion – Romanitas, interconnected, remove or recreate one of the elements incorrectly, and the whole subsequent chain will be incorrect or void, one incorrect element entails the error of all subsequent ones.
Returning to Roman Religion, I would like to say that what Lupus offers is a kind of attempt to remove the quintessence of Roman Religion from the general system of Roman culture (both material and spiritual), and realize the result in modern times. This approach can and should be considered, it must be given a qualified assessment, however, the proposed option is possible for a number of other religions, but not for the Roman Religion, the cult of which is based on a clear ritual. The ritualism of the Roman Religion determines its relationship with the institutions and bodies of the Roman Civitas, and the correct (proper) and timely delivery of rituals is one of the expressions (manifestations) of Romanitas. It is all interconnected. That is why, when we talk about ritual, we must first of all understand that certain ritual actions should be carried out only by proper persons in accordance with a certain order, and nothing else. This is all the cornerstone of Roman religion – a ritual. Violation of the ritual for the Romans was a negative phenomenon, sinfulness caused disastrous consequences. The ritual should not be violated, under any circumstances, this is the whole point. However, now we are observing the opposite, when the ritual is not reproduced correctly, that is, it is carried out sinlessly. For the ancient Romans, what we do would be simply unacceptable. But why do we allow ourselves this? There are several reasons: we don’t have Civitas, the corresponding institutions and bodies, insufficiently really interested citizens do not or do not work properly, and most importantly, we make it as simple as convenient. In reality, this is terrible, because between the right and the simple (convenient), we choose the second, while the ancient Romans chose the first, because ritualism so commands. And now I’m not talking about frankly marginal movements, such as the organization of Cassia, I’m talking about our Republic. Why is the augur, but not the responsible magistrate, conducting the auspices before of the last comitia? Because it is simpler and more convenient, but it is not right. In Rome, such auspices would not have power, it would cause sin (mistake, error), and comitia and their decisions would be insignificant (from the religion point of view – nothing, nothing good). But in our time, we don’t even think about it, because some have insufficient knowledge, while others deliberately go to violations of the ritual, its algorithm and procedure, as a result, it turns out that our community did nothing right, so – about which then Pax Deorum we can say, if we did not even recreate Civitas, in order to begin the systematic revival of the Roman Religion. We need to accept and agree with the ritualistic nature of the Roman Religion, and begin to do it right, and not as we are – more convenient, comfortable or easier. If I talked about the state of decline that has been observed in recent years, from the point of view of the Roman Religion, I would say that this is a consequence of the fact that our community has lost good relations with the Gods, because the community violated or does not fulfill the principles, rules and obligations of Cultus Deorum Romanorum.
These issues, in particular regarding the imperium, have already been raised on this forum more than once. The fact is that they do not lead to anything. Everyone remains unconvinced. As a result, these discussions have no applied value, are virtually meaningless. At the same time, in Sarmatia we periodically arrange real discussions on various occasions, and the arguments are evaluated by the community, in fact we collectively consider this or that issue, and come to a common solution. This method really helps to solve problematic issues, it does not strike new discords, because we use the actually antique method. The Republic should go the same way, look for answers to questions, solve problematic issues, act together, because only in this way the results of the discussion approved by the majority can be jointly accepted for implementation and realized, and not remain only as an exchange of opinions between several people with different opinions on one question. However, this points to important issues in the entire movement of Roman revivalism, think about it:
Never in history has any community or a significant group of people gathered in order to substantively and scientifically discuss and adopt solutions to the problems for the real revival of the Roman Religion.
It is for this that communities are needed, because solution of such problems can only be found together, because Roman Religion is the foundation of Civitas, and they are inextricably linked with each other. But in our case, the various organizations of Roman revivalism are like blind kittens who understand the need for something, that is, the revival of the Roman Religion, but in reality do not take real meaningful systemic actions that would give tangible results.
Maybe it’s finally time to finally think better of it, return to the right path, restore relations with the Gods and begin to do it either easier or more convenient, but start doing it right, like the ancient Romans did, who really moved to Pax Deorum?
From the first book of the writings of Augur M. Valerius Messala (consul 53 BC) it follows that, for example, as in secular affairs management, the praetor was inferior to the consul, and praetor auspices were inferior in importance to the consul’s auspices. However, in fact, it was not the differentiation of the right to auspices that determined the ranking of magistrates, but
on the contrary, political powers determined the subordination of rights to auspices. They differed among themselves mainly in that each magistrate had the right to question the will of the Gods only in the sphere of his competence, i.e. it was the political structure that determined it, and not the teachings of the Augurs. All this – and the right to manage the affairs of the community, and the right to ask the Gods about them – was expressed by the formula «imperium (sive ductus) auspiciumque» (precisely in this sequence), denoting the power of the higher magistrates.
The first on this path is the restoration of Сivitas, with the relevant institutions and bodies.
You can listen and read for as long as you like that our modern magistrates are like a version of a role-playing game, but this does not change the essence of the matter, because without these magistrates it is impossible to restore the Roman Religion, because certain rituals require their presence and actions. If magistrates do not participate and do not act in the ritual, this entails the nullity of the ritual itself and its sinfulness. Thus, rather, what is happening now, when the rituals are being implemented untimely and incorrectly, or their departure without the participation of magistrates should be called role-playing – role-playing in the Roman religion. In the last paragraph, I specifically pointed out the relationship of the imperium not only with the political (civilian) element, but also with the sacred. Everything is interconnected here, therefore, even theoretically it is impossible to separate the Roman Religion from Civitas, magistrates, comitia and other things. Trying to do this, you just get something like Wicca, but it certainly will not bring the community and people closer to Pax Deorum.
You see, if only religion itself could be distinguished from Roman civitas, then the ritual would be violated, because it would be performed in an inappropriate place, by inappropriate people, using an inappropriate procedure. This would cause the nullity and sinfulness of the rituals from the point of view of the historical Romans themselves (their practice). From sources we know that often the reaction of the Gods (one of them) to mistakes or shortcomings during the ritual was significant and negative. It turns out that if now we almost always break the ritual, then actually what are we counting on? That is, two thousand years ago, the smallest mistake in the ritual led to serious problems, and in the modern world, when we consciously make significant deviations from the ritual for the sake of our convenience and simplicity, we do not break the ritual, we do not anger the Пods, we get the correct sacred result ? Naturally, no. This is all a huge, huge problem. But in order to at least begin to solve this problem, it is necessary to recognize this problem. To do this, we need to make changes in our heads and consciousness, because the root of the problem lies there, because we do not stop acting on the basis of our own convenience and simplicity, without even trying to do it right, as it should be, and not as we want. Acceptance and comprehension is a necessary step, because it will be worse further – you will understand the failure of everything that was before, and presented to you under the guise of the Roman religion, it’s just an illusion, at best it’s just some deceptive form, without proper content – a dummy. Until this revolution in your mind happens, each of us will continue to deceive himself, or allow someone to deceive himself.
To restore the Roman Religion, need to create the necessary conditions, this implies the need to restore Civitas. Roman Religion, in principle, does not exist without Civitas. In the Roman Republic there is a community, that is, a certain community of people, but this is not Civitas, even those Civitas institutions that we have, like comitia or the senate, which seem to exist but do not always work correctly, do not make Civitas from our community. We can repeat as much as we like that we are Civitas, but this is not so, it is more like self-deception or self-hypnosis than some other Roman organizations have sinned. At such moments, I begin to think about how deeply and firmly Christianity is in our culture and in our minds, because this Christianity can exist separately from the Civitas, but the Roman Religion cannot exist at all without the Roman Civitas. To strive to separate Religion from Civitas, we think of the Roman Religion as Christianity, that is, something that has independent value and the possibility of independent existence. This is not true. Our task is to reward the Roman Religion as it was, and not as it seems to us, or we would like to see it. It’s time to take off the pink glasses, and get down to business – to create the conditions in which the Roman Religion can be recreated. No one now has such conditions, but it is in the Roman Republic that we can do this, there is such an opportunity, we must not miss it and finally begin to do everything right.
If someone believes that it is not quite right to restore something ancient such as it was, then I will say that already at the time of Cicero, the Roman Religion is quite archaic, containing a lot of things about which the ancient Romans themselves did not understand. Nevertheless, without even understanding the meaning of some things, they continued to do this because the ritual was undeniable and sacred, and its violation was negative.
The Roman Religion was changing, however, these changes took place within the framework of the principles and rules laid down within the Roman Religion and Civitas itself, while the whole process took place sequentially, without going beyond such rules and principles. This is important to understand, because what is sometimes offered and passed off as the Roman Religion is not a continuation or development of the Roman Religion, it is already something new that completely goes beyond the stated principles and rules, that is, it is no longer the historical Roman Religion , not its successor.
And now just think, which pro-Roman organization really was engaged in the real reconstruction of the Roman Religion, in accordance with the rules and principles of the Roman Religion? The answer is simple, there is no such organization. Even Roman Republic of ours … in a sense, we are walking on the path of Nova Roma, but this is the wrong way. At the time, Nova Roma pushed a significant number of people to the Roman Religion, began the practical implementation of the Roman Religion, and this is great, however, now this has long been insufficient. The most interesting thing is that over the past decades a significant amount of scientific works on Roman Religion and Roman Culture in general has appeared, that is, our knowledge is expanding, we have access to a huge amount of materials on the issue of interest to us, however … however, despite this, we are not in a hurry to implement putting this knowledge into practice, doing everything right, we do not create conditions for this, we act in a completely different way, we make it both easier and more convenient.
For example, the augur himself could not hold public auspices, but could help the magistrate to carry them out. At the same time, the augur was actually subordinate to the magistrate. The corresponding ritual formula Cicero tells us: «Q. Fabi, te mihi in auspicio esse volo», «Q. Fabius I want you to be with me during the auspices».
Thus, we reliably know the ritual formulas for attracting augur to magistrate auspices, however, we deliberately ignore this order. Of course, the main reason why this happens is that we simply do not have enough people, because we need a magistrate with an imperium and a person who is a member of the college of augurs to gather in one place, but in our Republic there are simply no conditions , the right number of people are absent in the right place, and most often, except for one citizen, there are no other citizens around, and besides, we don’t even have a Collegium of Augurum, whose members were considered official augurs. But even in this situation, we persistently continue to perform ritual acts, including auspices, deliberately violating the order, principles and rules that we reliably know. So, breaking the ritual, what are we counting on? Do we not, through conscious neglect of the rules and principles of the ritual, its untimely execution, incur the displeasure of the Gods? Maybe this is the problem? Maybe we should not do anything, if you can’t do it right? Roman Religion is not toys, it is not fun, it is consistent execution, it is the rules and principles that have existed for centuries, and we should not encroach on them in our obstinacy and unwillingness to follow them. For example, the last situation with the elections: the Senate Princeps convened comitia – this violates many principles and entails a number of consequences that are not obvious to many, however, the curia comitia decided so because it is so simpler and more convenient. Subjective convenience and simplicity do not determine the correctness of the action. This shows how easily we neglect the principles and rules, including the Roman Religion. However, the Ancient Romans had a different approach to tradition and religion. For example, a dictator was specially appointed for the nail-driving ritual, that is, for a single ritual action, a dictator was appointed … in this principle, the consistent implementation of the principles and rules of the Roman Religion, Romanitas is manifested in particular. If the ancient Romans also easily neglected traditions, rules and principles, as we are doing now, they would hardly have created that brilliant Rome, about which we dream and which inspires us all.
As far as you know, role-playing and historical reenactment are engaged in the reconstruction of culture (in the broad sense of the word, material or non-material, real or not). Role-playing games are possible not only on fictional plots, but also on a really existing (historical) culture. In this case, role-playing games differ from historical reenactment in the rules and principles of the recreation of culture. Historical reenactment, using scientific methods, is guided by principles and rules stipulated by historical authenticity, while role-playing games are a haven of conventions, compromises, convenience and simplicity, where the main thing is visibility and imaginary relevance, where the essence of authenticity is ignored.
There is a huge layer of scientific knowledge and material on the subject of Roman Religion, but there is no one who would really take up the practical application of theoretical knowledge in practice of the entire complex of the Cortus Deorum Romanorum. Instead of the historical reconstruction of the Roman Religion, almost everyone around is engaged in role-playing games on this topic, ignoring the rules and principles, neglecting historical sources and historical authenticity, making it easier, more convenient and more comfortable. I am not against people who want to engage in Roman Religion, as a role-playing game, everyone has the right to their own path. But I am against when it calls the “revival” of Roman Religion, or its continuation. The revival of the Roman Religion is a revival of history, and such activity is associated with specific principles and rules, if they are violated, new principles and rules appear, then this is the creation of something new, some version or variant of the Roman Religion, but it is clearly not its revival. I would like to give a funny parallel in this context. Cultus Deorum Romanorum is a cult of the ROMAN Gods, that is, it is a cult of the Roman community (Civitas), dedicated to the Gods of the Roman community. The Roman Gods are the gods of the Roman community (Civitas), like the Gods, this community is one, there were not and cannot be other Civitas and Gods. But in practice, it turns out that a significant number of projects call themselves Roman communities (civitas) and then it turns out that they are all in partnership with some Roman Gods, and some magistrates (or some other persons) are intermediaries, but does it perhaps? Naturally not, and that is why this whole situation in Roman Revivalism creates an impression of what is happening as a role-playing game (cosplay). Everyone plays this role-playing game, not really caring about the real result – Pax Deorum, which in principle cannot be achieved in a role-playing game, because there is no real revival, there is just an appearance due to conventions, role-playing compromises. The Romans became great and glorified themselves precisely because they did not bend under difficulties, but each time tried to overcome them. It’s also time for us to take a step forward, it is time to leave role-playing games (cosplay), it is time to pay tribute to the Gods and take our activities seriously, it is time to really begin to revive the Cult of the Roman Gods, using scientific principles, methods and achievements. This path will really turn us into a unique and only Roman community, and then the question of competition within Roman revivalism will disappear by itself, because there will simply be no alternative and similarity to the Roman Republic, because the revival of the Roman Religion will exist only in one organization and only in within this organization, Pax Deorum can be reached.
The ancient Romans have already shown us the desired goal – Pax Deorum. The ancients showed us the only means of reaching Pax Deorum – the Cultus Deorum Romanorum, which obeys strict rules and principles and is based on a ritual. Improper or untimely performance of the ritual is a violation of the rules and principles of the Cult, which entails the inability to achieve Pax Deorum. The fact that the Roman Republic, individual magistrates, as well as other organizations and projects, act and perform the Cultus Deorum Romanorum makes it impossible to achieve Pax Deorum. Whether someone likes it or not, it’s just a fact. If we, in principle, strive for Pax Deorum, and do not cherish our vanity, play role-playing games or do cosplay, then the Roman Republic has to change, it is time for us, our thinking and attitude to the Roman Religion, we must admit our mistakes and start to do it right.
Shouting what I am saying is like arguing with history. Therefore, if you agree with me, then I see the following way out of the situation:
1) Start realistically and correctly recreate the Roman Religion.
2) When reconstructing individual elements of the Roman Religion, directly refer to historical sources, and if they are absent, use scientific methods to recreate the missing link in the chain.
3) To intensify the role of the Senate in religious terms, and in order to exclude panipulativity and populism in solving key religious issues, oblige senators to refer to historical sources (at the same time, this will raise the level of knowledge of the Senate).
4) To recreate the Collegium Pontificum, to include several of the most knowledgeable citizens of the Republic there, to ensure the correct recreation of the Cult, its correct execution, as well as the expression of expert opinion, as well as the reconstruction of one of the elements of the Roman society system.
5) The re-establishment of the Collegium Augurum, which will ensure proper communication with the gods, as it was in history.
6) Activization of the Republic as a whole, and of the indicated collegiums and bodies in solving theoretical and practical problems in the field of reconstruction and implementation of the Roman Religion in the Roman Republic in modern conditions. That is, what no one has seriously done yet.
7) Consolidation of the relevant provisions on the Roman Religion (Cult), principles, rules, colleges and bodies, the procedure for their work and relations, in the Code (Constitution), which I spoke about earlier and the project of which I am engaged, so that everything we talk about became interconnected elements of a single restored Roman Civitas.June 20, 2020 at 10:08 pm #38294
Septimus Geminius CanusDenarii: 𐆖 105.50PlebeiusGallia Mississippia
Salve, I’ve taken some time to read through things posted here and I certainly agree with what I’ve read. These long term plans are most assuredly in the best interest of the RR. I may not have been here long so I can’t speak to how active this community is, but from what I’ve observed, consistent communication and discussion seem to be less from the common citizen and more of the leadership. Which is fantastic, that so many are dedicated to the revival of the Roman Religious practices. I don’t mean to take away from the dedication and successes of those who’ve come before me. The main point I’m trying to broach here is that this website is professional and organized, all things to be admired. However the official nature may not encourage discourse between the citizenry. As I’ve not been here long, I don’t know how close each region is to each other internally or how often they speak. Or for which methods are used to do so. It seems to me that the best way to begin, is to get people talking. Make it accessible, desirable and engaging. Many communities that I partake in use mediums like Discord with a fair deal of success. While I certainly agree that traditions be followed and that in person gatherings are the pinnacle of what is desired. It is no less true that Rome represented significant progress in history and the Roman people were able to adapt and overcome any obstacles. I feel the dedication I’ve witnessed here is second to none and I am quite proud to be a part of such a fantastic undertaking. Forgive me if I’ve overstepped, but I felt a new persons perspective on short term goals may be good stimulation.June 20, 2020 at 11:24 pm #38295
… from what I’ve observed, consistent communication and discussion seem to be less from the common citizen and more of the leadership.
Carissime Gemini Cane, I am just a common citizen and have never held any office in the Republic. Still I am able to participate in all discussions. If a citizen wants to participate, there is nothing to hold him back.
However I have to admit that the new forum is a little bit cumbersome. To be honest, the old forum was technically easier. The daily digest worked also much better, what is essential to get citizens to participate and help them to keep track of the discussions going on. I am happy about any technical suggestions to improve our communication.
Flavi Severe Senator, thank you for your thoughtful comments.
My first question would be: How did the followers of the Cultus Deorum perform the rituals correctly after the year 313, when the Empire had its first Christian emperor and most magistrates did not follow the Religio anymore? Somehow they must have had a proper modus operandi even without magistrates performing the rituals. Why can this not be an example for us how to go on in a time, when we have no political power?
There would also be another option, which I am a little bit hesitant to mention:
We could give real imperium to our magistrate and form a parallel governent. This year we have seen the constitutional order in almost all countries all over the world collapsing under the pretext of a pandemic (although a constitution would normally even become more important in times of a crisis and not be suspended as we can witness it today). The contrat social is apparently not in effect anymore. Governments act without legal basis and the police enforce orders that are in violation of constitutions and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In short, we live currently in a state of total anarchy with no respect for law and order. So we could aim to restore a republican order and grant imperium to our magistrates in the real world and hope to bring some order back into the world post-2020.
This would be similar to the Italian Mafia that also has its own code of law independent from the state of Italy. In the same way we could re-establish the ancient Mos Maiorum independent from the failed states we currently live in and their tyrannical police forces.
With real imperium our magistrates would indeed start to restore a real Roman Republic with a constitution that has effect in the real world and would replace the disfunctional constitutions of the current nation states.
I would very much like to live in a republic again as it was the case until a few months ago, and even more so, if it were a republic according to the Mos Maiorum. But it would be a bold move that, I am afraid, we do not have the strength for in the post-2020 world order, since it would require a unit of armed real-life enforcer (e.g. lictores) that would execute the orders of the magistrates.
So I am afraid we have no other choice, but follow the example of our ancestors, after they lost political power in the Empire to the Christians. And this would be without magistrates having an active role in the Cultus Deorum.
Valete!June 23, 2020 at 9:58 am #38333
Quintus Vergilius CrassusDenarii: 𐆖 83.75PlebeiusSarmatia
Recently, the topic of the imperium has become popular, so I decided to write about this. In Sarmatia, we had discussions about this, and we came to a consensus. What is an imperium in general? Is it permissible to reduce the imperium to power over life and death, as a key element?
We must understand that for the сivitas of the Romans, public religion and public authority were inseparable, this is clearly illustrated by the example of the Senate, as a key and coordinating organ of religion, and magistrates, as the highest performers of worship. At the same time, public law acted as a regulator of religion. The customs of the ancestors were the source of public law, and the formalism and ritualism of the Roman religion itself is a characteristic of the formalism and ritualism of public law. Therefore, the imperium itself, as an element of public authority and a public cult, should be considered as a category of public law, this is its essence. The imperium is heterogeneous in nature, it differs in its strength, purpose, tasks, and even action in space. Comparing different imperiums with each other, we easily come to the conclusion that power over life and death is not at all a criterion that determines the imperium. For example, a commission of ten for creating laws of 12 tables had an imperium, possessing essentially consular power, however, this imperium was limited to the tasks of the commission, and not to decisions on the issue of life and death, commander’s tasks, and so on. Certain dictators, for example, the dictator, who was appointed for the ritual for driving a nail, had the same special imperium. At the same time, we should recall the aedil empire as an ordinary magistracy. All this indicates that the power over life and death does not determine the existence of the imperium, and also that the imperium is a legal category, because the volume of the imperium is determined by public law, as well as its type and purpose. The same public legal norms determine the action of the imperium in space and in terms of persons, because the right of appeal of a Roman citizen to the national assembly directly limits the implementation by the magistrate of his imperium (including the right to life and death of a citizen). Thus, public law not only defines the imperium, but also creates the framework and restrictions for the imperium. Remember how lictors take hatchets out of fascines when a magistrate enters the Сity’s borders, and remember why they do this — this is a visible expression of the diminution of their imperium within the City.
Imperium is a legal category. It can be recreated. But, as Severus correctly says, for this you need to recreate the civitas, because public law is the rules and norms due to which the civitas functions and exists. Without civitas, there will be no public law, without public law there will be no imperium. Now we have only a community from which we can and should create a civitas.
Regarding lictors. These are signs of power (of the imperium), such as a special toga, a curule chair, etc. … the signs are important, however, their absence does not destroy the power itself or the imperium. I believe that this is directly related to what the Sarmatians have been talking about for a long time – mainly those who could not even gather a community around look for magistracy, therefore it is not surprising that they cannot even hypothetically find lictors, because they basically there are no people nearby, just as some governors have fewer people in the province than there should be lictors and governor headquarters workers. Yes, this needs to be changed, but this is not critical in the circumstances, because the absence of insignia does not destroy the imperium.June 23, 2020 at 12:46 pm #38336
We must understand that for the сivitas of the Romans, public religion and public authority were inseparable, this is clearly illustrated by the example of the Senate, as a key and coordinating organ of religion, and magistrates, as the highest performers of worship.
Salve,Vergili Crasse! This is an interesting point you made. The magistrates, as the highest performers of worship.
History can also teach us, what the Romans did, when a certain magistrate office ceased to exist. This happened so in the year 509 BCE, when L. Tarquinius Superbus, the last rex was expelled from the city and the office of rex ceased to exist. Then the Romans created the purely priestly office of rex sacrorum to perform the rituals that normally were reserved for the rex.
So when there is no magistrate with real political imperium, the religious task is taken over by a priest. This is how the Romans did it. And this is the situation we are in today. We should follow this example from history and have religious ceremonies performed by priests.June 24, 2020 at 8:11 am #38340
Senator Crassus in a concise and simplified form recounted the essence of our debate with him at the last live event in Sarmatia.
Indeed, the question of the imperium is a question of a purely legal nature, which clearly does not depend on power over life and death, which is clearly traced by the example of historical realities.
The Roman Religion, in part of its regulatory framework, is essentially part of Roman public law. Thus, the idea of restoring certain legal institutions and categories is a matter of restoring Civitas, which we actually do not have now, but only its semblance, however, this is the next step for all of us, since without this we will not be able to revive the Republic itself or Roman Religion.
Rome gave us one of its outstanding legacies – Roman law, however, we are not in a hurry to use it. Law creates Civitas from a community of individuals. We are discussing a number of issues in any way the Romans from the standpoint of law and historical sources, like a club of interests. We need to get away from this, we must use jurisprudence and history, and from their positions we have no problems with the possibility of reconstituting Civitas and reviving the imperium.
The right stands out the so-called legal technique, which contains various techniques, for example, legal fiction or irrefutable presumption (praesumptio iuris et de iure).
Take for example adoption. A person who is not a blood relative is included in the composition of blood relatives, with the participation of the comitia, that is, Civitas. That is, in accordance with the law, a person acquires a new quality and status, which are not inherent in him by nature. And this same legal process also has sacred consequences, because in this way a person joins the adoptive parent’s home cult.
I want to summarize. We want to achieve the goal, to revive the Roman Religion, having realized the Romanitas and restored the Pax Deorum. But unfortunately, our community does not seek to seriously understand history, in the essence of some issues, because of this we sometimes do not notice that we have all the tools and means to achieve the task, we just need to understand this, find them, and be able to take advantage of. Until we realize this, we will continue to think that it is impossible to revive the Roman Religion by realizing the Romanitas and restoring the Pax Deorum in the way that the Romans did (that is, the only possible way), and we begin to look for other means and tools , not understanding that in this way we do not object or recreate anything, but do something new and different. This is not so; it is the path of error and ignorance.
Let’s solve these global problems, as the Romans did, let’s look for the right solutions together, let’s not simplify, and act as conveniently, let’s do it right, do it once and for all.June 25, 2020 at 11:39 am #38364
Lupus, it’s always nice to chat with you, discussing interesting topics.
Two years ago, when you, Lupus, and a number of other citizens wanted to start interacting with Nova Roma and other organizations to create a common religious structure, I wondered about the hypothetical possibility of separating Roman Religion from Civitas. Pursuing this issue, I, like you, also turned my attention to Rex Sacrorum. Having examined this issue, I came to the conclusion that such a separation is impossible, and the position of Rex Sacrorum itself is a clear demonstration of the formalism, adherence to traditions and the legal nature of the Roman Religion.
In order to justify my point of view, I will give a number of arguments, they can be perceived both individually and in combination, in any case, one way or another refute the possibility of separation of Religion and Civitas on the example of the aforementioned Rex Sacrorum:
1) It is likely that Rex Sacrorum received precisely those powers from Rex that did not require the imperium, since the magistrates from Rex received the sacred powers that required the presence of the imperium, since the magistrates were representatives of Civitas (the Roman community) in communication with By the gods.
2) Rex Sacrorum – a way to preserve the sacred title of Rex, that is, a way to maintain relations with the Gods in the same way. In this case, one should rather speak not about the sacred powers of the post, but about the sacred meaning of the title itself. This is supported by the presence of the Rex epithet in the supreme patron of the Roman state – Jupiter of Capitoline. True, his usual epithet was Optimus Maximus , possibly replacing the epithet Rex after the abolition of royal power, but the last name was not forgotten, and Cicero to some extent even combines both epithets: “The king is the name of Jupiter the All-Benevolent.” Both Cicero and Livius mention the Rex epithet precisely as usual for Jupiter, and not as old and half-forgotten. With the epithet Regina, Juno is mentioned, long since connected with Jupiter and having a common temple with him on the Capitol. Therefore, for the Romans, the famous cult of Juno Regina was not a stranger. In addition, Juno Regina was revered also in the cities of Latsia. Another temple to her was built in 179 BC. e. in the Circus Flam. Thus, the leaders of the Roman community had the same title as God, Rex, and therefore their very position was to some extent sacred.
3) Rex Sacrorum is associated with the rituals of time and space, year, so there is an opinion that he could be a priest of Janus, that is, similar to the “profile” sacerdotes – flamens, so he acted as a priest of a particular deity, inheriting this specialization from Rex. This is also supported by the fact that priests with certain functions stood out even before, for example, the delegation of their functions by kings to flamens.
5) Some of the sacred functions were directly connected with the imperial dignity, and this connection was considered so indissoluble that they could not be simply transferred to the Pontifex Maximus. While the transfer of sacred functions from pontiffs in the Republican period took place – the creation of epulones, which took over part of the functions of the pontiffs.
6) There are direct indications that ancient authors perceived Rex power as sacred in itself. Plutarch ascribes to Tiberius Gracchus a remarkable statement: “The Rex not only united all offices in itself, but was also dedicated to the deity with the greatest rites.”
7) Rex Sacrorum is constantly mentioned in the same row with flamens, i.e. with those priests who did not have an imperium, whose duties had only religious significance, and sacred restrictions were very significant. In particular, it was precisely for them that they necessarily required the origin of a marriage concluded in the ancient sacral rite of confarreatio; in their presence it was forbidden to work on holidays, because it defiled public sacred activities. And most importantly – Rex Sacrorum, like other priests, underwent inauguration, as the sources directly say.
8) The power of Rex in ancient Rome had an independent sacred meaning, in addition to the fact that the Rexes had significant power in the religious field and sought to control it, and also could additionally hold certain priestly posts, in particular, they apparently could be Pontifex Maximus .
9) The preservation of the title “Rex” in the sacred region could only partly be a consequence of the religious conservatism of the Romans and, moreover, not thanks for the good deeds of the former Rexes as Dionysius claimed. It reflected the most important features of the Roman worldview. We should talk about the sacralization of the government itself, its powers, position and the title of Rex. This situation made secondary the issue of the identity of the bearer of this power, which facilitated the coming to power of foreigners, including the Etruscans, whose religious characteristics were not of a fundamental nature. On the other hand, it was very important to observe the continuity of power itself, and this was important primarily in a sacred sense, which led to the emergence of such a specifically Roman institution as “interrex”, which retained its real political significance under the Republic.
These examples also demonstrate what Crassus and I have repeatedly spoken about – the subordination of the religious sphere to the political sphere; the religious sphere is legal in nature; religious sphere is impossible without civitas; The reforms carried out, including in the religious sphere, had as their goal not a change as such, but the preservation of the existing religious order in the face of changing circumstances. That is, the appearance of Rex Sacrorum is not an attempt to reform and change, but rather a conscious action aimed at maintaining the previous order, in the new conditions caused by the disappearance of Rex. In addition, Rex Sacrorum is an example of the redistribution of sacred functions within Civitas, that is, without Civitas, this is basically impossible. Thus, the example of Rex Sacrorum is clearly not an example of how the religious component can be removed from the Roman system and developed separately, as suggested by Lupus. On the contrary, this is an example of how the Romans consistently and persistently honored the rules and principles of the Roman Religion, and how reverently they treated the existing order, trying to maintain it, including in the religious sphere – in communion with the Gods, in order to achieve Pax Deorum. And this shows that the behavior of our communities now for the Romans of that time would be generally unacceptable.
Considering the above, I still urge everyone to return to the revival of the Roman Religion in compliance with the rules and principles of this same Roman Religion, for which you need to recreate Civitas.June 25, 2020 at 6:17 pm #38367
Salve Flavi Severe Senator,
d5) Some of the sacred functions were directly connected with the imperial dignity, and this connection was considered so indissoluble that they could not be simply transferred to the Pontifex Maximus. While the transfer of sacred functions from pontiffs in the Republican period took place – the creation of epulones, which took over part of the functions of the pontiffs.
But wasn’t the office of Pontifex Maximus part of the imperial title? It was so important that it even indicated who the senior emperor was in times with more than one emperor. And still it was imaginable for Romans that the office of Pontifex Maximus was separate from the imperial office like for example in the case of M. Aemilius Lepidus who remained P.M. until his death, while Augustus was already emperor.
This seems to indicate that a separation of secular and priestly functions was not alien to Romans.
Then we have another problem in our civitas: Not all cives are followers of the Cultus Deorum. Even magistrates are not necessarily cultores. Still they would perform ceremonies in the name of the Religio Romana. How can the CDR be a consistent religion, when not even the most important ceremonies are performed by an adherent to this religion? A faithful Christian would have to reject the idea of performing an – in his eyes – “pagan” ritual. And we cannot force him to do so or make it arequirement for the office. This would be a violation of our principles of tolerance and inclusiveness.
The current Pontifex Maximus of Rome, Franciscus, for example is also the head of the Catholic Church. He is supposed to preside over the Collegium Pontificum. But we cannot force him to do so. It is just not going to happen.
Our only way out of this situation is a reorganization of the Cultus Deorum in accordance with the unfortunate facts of the world we live in. This is not an arbitrary deviation from tradition and a push for modernization, we are simply not given any other choice. This is how the world is these days. I don’t like it, but I can’t change it. We have to accept it. We need to separate religious functions from secular functions.
This is exactly what our ancestors were forced to do,when the Empire became Christian, and the magistrates would not participate in the religious ceremonies. They had no choice either. The Religio had to separate from the Empire and find its own independent organization.
The civitas and the religious community of the Cultus Deorum are simply not identical. This is a fact, if we like it or not.
Cura ut valeas!June 26, 2020 at 6:17 pm #38384
Some of the sacred functions were directly connected with the imperial dignity
I apologize, these are translation errors, due to the fact that the translator incorrectly translated a certain similarity in concepts, meaning not “imperial dignity”, but “rex dignity”. I think that with this clarification everything falls into place and no further explanation is required.
This seems to indicate that a separation of secular and priestly functions was not alien to Romans.
Rex Sacrorum, as I said, is just a sign that the Romans, following the rules and principles of the Roman Religion, could not separate the secular and priestly. Apparently, Rex Sacrorum received only those priestly functions that did not require the imperium. I gave other examples in the last post.
Our only way out of this situation is a reorganization of the Cultus Deorum in accordance with the unfortunate facts of the world we live in. This is not an arbitrary deviation from tradition and a push for modernization, we are simply not given any other choice.
The issue is not the reorganization of the Cult. The meaning of the ritual. We cannot change rituals. The ritual must be carried out by the owner, in the proper place, at the right time, in the proper manner. If the ritual is broken, then it is insignificant, entails negative consequences, and this introduces a negative relationship between the community and the Gods. A broken ritual moves us away from Pax Deorum. Reorganize the Cult and you cannot properly perform the ritual. That is the whole point. We must observe the ritual, for this we need to restore the Cult, and not reorganize it. For example, the procedure for the consecration of the public sacra temple is described in the sources, in particular, the magistrate with the imperium plays a key role there. If you now consecrate the temple without a magistrate with the imperium, this makes such consecration void because the ritual has been violated, and given that it has been deliberately violated, this may clearly cause the Gods to displease.
Lupe, the problems you are talking about have a place to be. But, I have already talked about this before. The point is that everyone says that there are obstacles to the restoration of the Roman religion. Everyone sees these obstacles and talks about them. But no one seriously thought how to overcome these obstacles, and go the given path. It seems that when they meet obstacles, everyone talks about them and makes it easier – they choose a different path, simpler, more convenient … but this is not the path of Roman Religion, it is a different path. The path of the Roman Religion is a path full of many obstacles, difficult and long, but there is simply no other way of the Roman Religion, and we must pass it, otherwise we will not be able to restore the Roman Religion.
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