December 10, 2020 at 11:09 am #40586
Caeso Cispius LaevusDenarii: 𐆖 871.55PlebeiusBritannia
I am very sad to wake up to see the present senate discussion regarding Nova Roma. I am even more dismayed at the message from consul Q. Camillus. http://romanrepublic.org/roma/fora/topic/nova-romas-violation-of-declaratio-amicitiae/#post-40585
Temperance dear friend.
We need to find a way for Nova Roma and our Republic to trust each other. I agree, it seems like Nova Roma, or parts of the organization were poor actors recently. But we must not label each other as evil or useless. Both organizations have merit and good people. Both groups contain many duel citizens.
Let us come to terms with this essential truth. The Roman Republic and Nova Roma are better together. Nova Roma has many traditions and resources. Our Republic has the same. Everyday we bicker and fight surely the gods must lament.
As a candidate for consul, if you elect me I will immediately seek a new and improved accord between our two organizations. This will be my first order of business. As such I will do the following:
I. The Senate of Nova Roma will be invited to observe and comment within the senate forum of the Roman Republic. In return we ask to do the same.
II. I will ask that all Roman Republic citizens who were or are citizens in Nova Roma be granted full and unobstructed citizenship in Nova Roma. All duel citizens are to be unmoderated and unharassed. Citizens that need discipline shall be disciplined jointly.
III. The Plebeian tribunes of both organizations will sign a pledge to enforce this common good.
IV. A face to face video conference between all magistrates and senators between both organizations should occur at a minimum annually. At this meeting joint events are to be planned, and details of the ongoing collaboration discussed and improved.
Let us sign a new friendship agreement with Nova Roma, but this time give it enforceability.December 10, 2020 at 12:06 pm #40587
Quintus Furius CamillusDenarii: 𐆖 699.45PatriciusBritannia
Look mate, someone needs to call a spade a spade. You might wish from the bottom of your bleeding heart that your spade is really a block of gold. But no policy or piece of paper will ever turn that ol’ spade gold.
You think such things were never proposed? Nova Roma would walk over your dead body before then let one of our senators view their senate, let alone comment inside it! You are aware, that unlike the Roman Republic, not even Nova Roma citizens can view their own senate discussions. That’s a way too Roman idea. So if hardworking governor of a Nova Roma province such as Australia, can’t see his own senate, are you daft enough to think they will let dirty scum “Roman Republic Senator” Camillus watch AND comment! You are a funny guy Cispius. I like you, I do. But you are not dealing with the Roman Republic here. You are dealing with Nova Roma. The single most paranoid, infighting, sensitive, regulatory maze of a recon organization on Earth. The Pope would go sacrifice to Jupiter before they would agree to any one of your criteria.
You need to understand. They don’t respect you. You even being a consular candidate here likely annoys them. They prefer this organization was dead. Simple. Any friendship they offer you is really just them trying to shut you up and waiting for you to die.
Will they plan events with you? No.
Will they help you on your projects? No.
Will they accept your help on their projects? No.
Will they get upset if one of their citizens also joins the Res Publica? Yes.
Just since the first friendship agreement was signed all of the above has occurred. For goodness sakes until September of this year they still made their new citizens declare to never in their lives to have been a member here. This is three years after that so called friendship agreement! It was only until my consular colleague kept bugging them that they finally took that down… Good job Mus. But not really friendly friendship right?
But you know what, Cispius, maybe you can do it. Based on recent communications maybe you do have some things going for you.
- Are not Christian? If so, Nova Roma’s magistrates might like you more.
- Are you not Russian? If so Nova Roma will think you are a real person and not a “bot”. They might not dismiss you or block you from communicating.
- Do you think the policies of Nova Roma are immune from polite criticism? If yes, you get major brownie points. But sadly it will also mean acknowledging the organization you aim to lead should F off and die. Humm… Bummer right?
- Have you served as a magistrate in the Roman Republic? If yes – ALERT, ALERT! You are very very suspicious. Automatically you are more like a tier two citizen. To be censored at whims and generally not trusted. Good chance some there will politely suggest you are a bit better and more Roman then Attila the hun, but not by much. Some will wish you just didn’t exist because you clearly are damaged goods for ever being a magistrate outside of the benevolent Nova Roma.
So, how does that checklist look? How do your odds look Consular Candidate?
VALE!December 10, 2020 at 11:42 pm #40588
Publius Iunius BrutusDenarii: 𐆖 1,460.08PatriciusPacifica
P. Iunius Brutus sal.
Friends, I understand both sides, truly…
I have been a citizen in Nova Roma for nearly twenty years. Through my time there I discovered the beautiful traditions of the CDR and the idea of incorporating Roman culture into my life. When you strip away all the nonsense in Nova Roma its mission is pure and virtuous. Just as our mission here in the Roman Republic is virtuous.
It is important to recall why the Roman Republic was founded.
Our early history is inseparably linked to that of Nova Roma, for better or worse.
From pretty much 2009 onwards Nova Roma increasingly lost its way. The story about this is long, filled with egos, and incredibly boring and tedious. The bottomline, is that it resulted in two people by the names of Sulla and Caesar becoming sole controllers of the Nova Roma organization. They managed to do this through the help of some supporters and friends. But this group was fairly clearly the minority. To rectify this situation Sulla and Caesar expelled many people who opposed them. I was one of these people. Camillus was another. There were so many people that were simply cut out without any due cause. Many of these people had dedicated years of service to Nova Roma. Many had paid dues for years. Many had adopted their Roman culture into their lives. Having their citizenship simply removed was very upsetting. To be frank, the fact that this happened to me still bothers me.
After Caesar and Sulla expelled most active people, two choices became clear. If you wanted to continue as a Roman you had no other choice as your previous community was literally just torn apart. Your choices were; (1) You fight Nova Roma and by default Sulla and Caesar legally through corporate law. (2) You move on and transfer what was good about Nova Roma to another place, like Aeneas gathering up the sacred relics of Troy and founding the pre-cursor to Rome in Latium.
Most of the early supporters of the Roman Republic in 2015-2016 belonged to the second group. But simultaneously most of those also supported the efforts of the first group. In essence we were all allies against a common enemy – Caesar and Sulla and by default Nova Roma as it existed in that time. We all shared a common core mission. I, in fact supported both parties monetarily. Both had worthy causes. My personal long term goal has always been recovery of the early enthusiasm seen in Nova Roma twenty years ago.
Now it is an over simplification to think that everyone in the Roman Republic group and the Exiled Nova Roma group were friendly towards each other. Sadly, some of the Nova Roma exiles viewed founding another group as betrayal of the organization they sought to recover. Others in the Roman Republic group felt that recovery of Nova Roma would require compromising with some very unsavory people who caused the whole initial conflict. Isn’t that right Consul, Q. Camillus?
It was a sad situation. But still most of us were friends. At this time both parties had their hands full. The Roman Republic was busy founding its organization. The Nova Roma exiles were busy with lawyers.
Throughout this time both Nova Roma controlled by Sulla and Caesar were not fans of the Roman Republic for obvious reasons. So they declared is a competing organization and banned their citizens from participating.
This upset some (not all) Roman Republic leaders who viewed the exiles fighting Sulla and Caesar as trying to recover an organization that was clearly hostile to the Roman Republic. Camillus, Philo and their supporters believed that the exiles were likely to simply continue an anti-RR policy even if they were successful in recovering Nova Roma. Again, a proportion of those in the exile camp viewed the Roman Republic in a negative light for founding another group in the first place and not fighting to recover Nova Roma. This led to unfortunate things being said by both the Nova Roma exiles and some Roman Republic leaders. Camillus you were one of those people. This wasn’t good.
This led to further deterioration of relations. In 2017 Consul L. Curio worked to improve relations between the Nova Roma exiles and the Roman Republic. The accord of friendship we talk about was the fruit of this effort. This agreement basically said both parties won’t talk badly about each other and both will work together when able.
Now between 2017-2018 neither group was really in a position to organize joint events. Both groups had their struggles to stay unified and active. But then Sulla died and Caesar resigned and the exiles found some success legally in recovering parts (not all) of Nova Roma’s assets. Suddenly the exiles now controlled Nova Roma. The situation changed markedly. Supporters of Sulla and Caesar were still around and salty, but they no longer ran the show as they pleased.
At this time in 2019, as Consular Tribune of the Roman Republic, I approached the exiles who were now effectively in control of Nova Roma. At this tine I proposed meeting in person (I was ready to fly to Rome) with the key leaders of both camps and discussing reunion of Nova Roma and the Roman Republic – a merger of equals into the Republic of Nova Roma. Such an act seemed to me to make sense. It represented the exiled parties returning home and would enable much needed reforms to occur in Nova Roma while also preserving the work done in the Roman Republic for the last five years.
This idea was strongly rejected by Nova Roma, now controlled by the former exiles. Despite the friendship accord still being active anti-Roman Republic sentiments were allowed freely on NR fora. Anti-competition regulations remained in effect. None of the collaboration hoped for in 2017 occurred.
This is the present situation.
The truth is that lots of people were hurt by Sulla and Caesar and their supporters still have a voice in Nova Roma, albeit diminished. The former exiles were hurt by actions of some Roman Republic citizens who trashed them and Nova Roma in general. Roman Republic citizens were hurt by the exiles who labeled the efforts of the Roman Republic treachery or less than genuine. There are a lot of bad feelings here. I get it. I feel it too.
But I also am willing to forget it all. To move on. As Marcus Aurelius said, don’t be surprised or offended when people oppose you. Just be prepared for it. I think we need to recognize that a lot of emotions exist here and because of that a lot of suspicion exists on all sides.
We cannot move forward without acknowledging this and over coming it. As I said before, the Roman community is too small to fight each other. We could recover so much by viewing each other as brothers and sisters. To end the animosity and tolerance for the disrespecting of our bothers and sisters. If anyone can be mad with Nova Roma it’s me. Believe me. But I won’t be mad. It is pointless and obstructs us from our ultimate goal of restoring Roman culture.
Ultimately, for the immediate future I seek simple mutual respect and restoration of full unobstructed citizenship to all members of both organizations. I would also like to see disrespectful comments about both organizations viewed as breach of the mos maiorum and enforced.
I also still extend my invitation to meet in Rome (once travel is restored normally) with the leaders of all Roman organizations. I imagine looking each other in the eyes would do much to end all this silliness – most of which is probably misunderstandings due to high emotions.December 11, 2020 at 12:15 am #40589
Gaius Cominius LaenasDenarii: 𐆖 1,977.05EquesterEria
Can you squeeze blood from a stone?
You can’t force or coerce an organization into friendship. Doing so will likely end badly. Did it work out for Julius Caesar? From the looks of things, the non-corporate NR signed that friendship agreement not in good faith but to save themselves from legitimate criticism about their tolerance of questionable people who supported the dictators. That is my gut feeling.
It should be no surprise that the restored Nova Roma acts similar to the dictator’s Nova Roma. Many of the people that allowed for the dictatorship are still around. Do not forget that.
Can this situation change? Maybe? But it won’t be because of anything the Roman Republic does. Until then, expect Nova Roma to diminish the Roman Republic on every unofficial fora they have. They want to look like an honest partner here. But from reviewing the messages from NR, it’s clear that the reality is the opposite. At least from some of their key leaders.
At various times both Nova Roma and the Roman Republic have a few winners. I propose both organizations find a rocky island to put these people on. Then we can both talk about unity and good works. 😉December 11, 2020 at 12:55 am #40590
Spurius Gallonius CatulusDenarii: 𐆖 471.73PlebeiusCalifornia Citerior
In principle, I love the idea of an eventual reunion.
I have not seen the Nova Roma messages referenced, but it looks like respect is not part of the equation at the moment in our sister organization. In that case, is it not better if the Roman Republic is a refuge from their continued chaos? A place where well-meaning people can escape the fighting, disrespect, prejudice, and intolerance? It would be alarming if unification or cooperation meant losing what we have in our respublica. We have Concordia.
Heated discussion is rare here. We have only had one or two discussions here that required reminders on the virtues and no heated resignations during my term as tribune. We must not undervalue our civility here. We must defend our values and our mos maiorum that does not tolerate such actions.
Thank you for your time.December 11, 2020 at 1:13 am #40591
Sextus Decius MusDenarii: 𐆖 275.55PlebeiusAlta Planitia
I’ve been restraining myself from commenting.
I would like to read the thoughts of Princeps Senatus L. Curio. It was he who signed the agreement between Nova Roma and the Roman Republic. I assume he knows the spirit of the document and the discussions that occurred better than anyone here. He could tell us if the spirit of the document was violated.
Princeps Senatus, could you provide your valuable insight?December 11, 2020 at 1:45 am #40592
Lucius Aurelius CurioDenarii: 𐆖 928.75PlebeiusTransborealis Silva
As requested, I shall put my own thoughts into this. Though it may not be what some might want or think it would be.
Sadly, I feel the spirit of the document was indeed violated very shortly after we signed it. The idea behind the document was to allow participation in one another’s organizations (full participation, not half measures). It was to allow for a more united Roman society where we could work towards a greater goal in the name of the gods and our ancestors.
However, when it came to backing up those policies, they outright refused to allow it. They cherry picked what parts they liked, and threw everything else to the wolves. I vividly remember after that document was signed, during their election for leaders, several of our members attempted to run for office (which should have been allowed no questions asked by said agreement). It was met with censorship and denial, forcing these members to not even be considered for office. Over this matter I had a particularly nasty blowout with Lentulus, who helped me form and get the documents signed on their side.
As things stand now, I don’t think a union is possible. Cooperation is even shaky at best, like trying to keep a house of cards up during an earthquake. We would need a major paradigm shift from their side to be even slightly closer to cooperation. It’s quite telling that they just removed their ban last September on cross organizational involvement after 3 years of this contract of ‘friendship’.
That is my two cents on the matter. We extended an olive branch years ago, and this was the result. I personally think our efforts are better used elsewhere than to reattempt a losing battle.
L. Aurelius Curio
Princeps SenatusDecember 15, 2020 at 1:15 am #40593
Procula Valeria MessallaDenarii: 𐆖 280.40PlebeiusEria
Propraetor K. Cispius is right and wise on this matter. We should continue to show good-faith. If Nova Roma slaps us, I say we grin and bear it. We show our virtue through this stoicism! Let us continue to offer them genuine friendship. If they reject our honest intentions, then Nova Roma only shows the world their continued toxicity and lack of virtue!
December 15, 2020 at 11:53 am #40596
- This reply was modified 1 month ago by Procula Valeria Messalla.
Paullus Aemilius GallusDenarii: 𐆖 304.74PlebeiusRaetia
It noble to show our virtue and our goodwill… But under the current conditions, I wonder if it’s really wise to spend our time and our energy talking about that and trying to find again and again an accord Roma Nova. I think we should content ourselves with a mutual respect and a cordial (or neutral) relationship (for example, the elected magistrates shouldn’t speak about NR in a negative way). When Roma Nova will be open for an accord, it will be time for us to work on it.
In the meantime, we should remain focused on our Republic. We have so much to do here!
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